User talk:Belinda/Archive 3

Latest comment: 14 years ago by Belinda in topic Reverting

Template:Christiangreeting change

Hello. I've deleted Template:Christiangreeting. A template that pushes a particular religious belief (in this case Christianity, though "god" is ambiguous) is not something that we need to have. We're here to build an encyclopedia, not wish the blessings of a deity on others. I hope you understand. Cheers, Lauryn (utc) 00:28, 8 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Okay, thankyou. Sorry, I didn't know. :) Belinda 00:30, 8 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
No worries. Cheers, Lauryn (utc) 00:33, 8 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
If you want, I can move the template to your user space. Griffinofwales (talk) 00:38, 8 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
No, no, it's alright. :) I can just write it for myself. Wanted to make people be blessed by God.... Hehe... well, anyway, God bless you all and happy editing! Belinda 00:40, 8 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Advice change

Hello. I've noticed that you and User:Classical Esther have been editing and commenting on the same discussions. This is to be avoided since the two of you are closely related. Closely connected users may be considered a single user for Wikipedia's purposes if they edit with the same objectives. Please avoid voting/commenting in the same discussions (for example voting the same way on a particular request for deletion, an example located at at Wikipedia:Requests for deletion/Requests/2010/Odia Coates), such as requests for deletions, the Good Article process, or any other discussion where consensus is being generated. Thank you, NonvocalScream (talk) 07:09, 8 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

We are sisters, but our opinions are highly different. :) Your advice is very kind, and your concern is extremely helpful, I am sure, but I think it is unfair for the community to think us as one. We have wholly different personalities, and the things we know is quite different too. Belinda 07:16, 8 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
I understand this, yes. However, if you could avoid voting (really, commenting) on the //same// RFD, GA props, VGA props, this would be helpful. Usually we run into problems when two family members comment on the same article/discussion/whatever both supporting or opposing a position. Not so much an issue on noticeboards, but more of an issue on RFD's et cetera. Do you know what I mean? Best, NonvocalScream (talk) 07:19, 8 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
And... both you your content work is greatly needed, please do keep up the good work! NonvocalScream (talk) 07:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Well... Okay. Thankyou for such a long, kind explanation. But if I have a different opinion in an RFA or somewhat, may I still vote? For instance, Esther wishes to say "yes" to a deletion and I wish to say "no", then may I make my opinion clear if it is different? Usually my opinion is quite the same as Esther, you see. Thank you very much for the advice, and God Bless you! Belinda 07:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
There are usually no problems when the standings/opinions are different. We try our very to assume the very best intentions of people! The issues usually arise when both members support or oppose the same viewpoint. NonvocalScream (talk) 07:24, 8 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Okay, I'm sure the community is too kind to make issues out of those things, but I'll be on the safe side. Thankyou for your advice--it was very helpful!   Belinda 07:25, 8 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hey there! change

Thanks for your message. I am pleasantly surprised to see how many Christians have joined Simple Wikipedia since I left! Hopefully we'll see each other around! God bless, Andrew Kelly (talk) 03:17, 9 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Oh, no, I just wanted to be of some help. I hope I didn't just bother you by that annoying message. ;) Rather, thankyou for your kind reply! Hehe, I know you'll see me alot because I spend much time on wikipedia. God bless you too! I really think we will all be very much blessed because of all these blessings whenever we talk to each other... :P Belinda 03:21, 9 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
It did not bother me at all, I was happy to be welcomed back! --Andrew Kelly (talk) 04:24, 9 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
  Belinda 05:02, 9 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Note change

Please don't be non-serious with obvious vandals/trolls as you did in User talk:82.3.49.212. Remember they don't need to be fed. Using a standardized header would have been appropriate. Pmlineditor  11:32, 9 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Oh... sorry. I was just trying to be gentle. :p I guess the troll didn't learn its lesson. I never knew there was something like "Don't feed the trolls"! You are so smart, Pmlineditor!! Hehe, I won't do it again. Your hopeful and repentant admirer, Belinda 08:36, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Of Course! change

I am quite flattered that you would want me in your "Users I delight in" list. How could I turn down such an invitation, even if I am not nearly as delightful as some may think :). You should be in a delightful user list yourself, as you and your sister are the friendliest people I have ever met on Wikipedia! --Andrew Kelly (talk) 06:00, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

I try my best to assume good faith, but nobody ever really told me that I'm succeeding in my try except for you. You're very friendly too, I'm sure, and I hope you'll be so kind as you are to me to other people, too, so that they may agree with my high opinion of you. :) Thankyou for the compliment, and I'll put you on my list! Belinda 08:36, 10 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Note change

With all respect, and I acknowledge that your content work here is excellent. Thank you for your continued contributions. As an aside, for me; Blocking User:Christianrocker90 was not like blocking God. I blocked a problematic situation from continuing. I understand your intent in that message, I do. I don't think that all editors may take it the same way. Remember, that we have contributors from all walks of life, and faiths contributing here. Just something to keep in mind. I respect you and your work and encourage you to continue! Very best, NonvocalScream (talk) 01:45, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Well, yes, thankyou for such a kind note, I was just trying to lecture CR90 a bit... :S I'm not sure if I did it right. I thought, on my side, that he was overreacting a little by trying to retire, and his attitude as a christian was not very good, and it would be dirtying Jesus's reputation. I wasn't exactly meaning that you were blocking God, but to make my point clear, I didn't want him to keep on being so vulgar and at the same time call himself a christian--then what would the world think of christians? So I was trying to advise him, I hope I wasn't too offensive or harsh... Well, I hope you aren't angry at me? :) God bless, Belinda 02:58, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
No, I don't get the angry emotions here on the wiki, that is, I don't get angry here :) Did you know that each user page has an "email this user" function? :) Such messages of a religious nature, could be taken privately if you prefer... the wiki has the features :) Very best! NonvocalScream (talk) 03:01, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
O, yes, I did know, but... I thought maybe CR90 would not check his mail quite often, and wanted him to see that message quickly. When reading the discussion of bringing back his "Tragic Love story", I almost stamped my foot in annoyed impatience at his continued insist, and took him off my list. I liked the story, but it wasn't really enough to have a big discussion about. If I were him, I would have withdrew quickly and apologized. Hehe, even I, who was so affectionate, felt slightly annoyed, as he kept on being mean and snapping back to the admins. Also, I get into an almost hysterical fit when I see swearwords, like when he said "wha the h***". I hope I wasn't too bad, but I think he deserved it. And Nonvocal scream, I apologize instead of CR90, for all his nonsense he has caused to the community. You are a very patient, good user, and wikipedia surely needs your help! Belinda 03:10, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
By the way, Belinda, CR90 is on a wikibreak. He'll probably respond to emails faster. :P And remember, we must not judge each others too hastily: that isn't very Christian, either. Classical Esther 03:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Yes, but this is not hasty. From the retiring, the swearing, the arguing, the snapping, and the impatience, I am very disappointed in CR90. I hope he does well, though I'm not sure if I can say it, and I still am extremely fond of him--I just don't want him in my Users I delight in list because other people might get a bad opinion of me because of him. Never mind me, though, I'm just a picky, immature girl who tries to lecture people... "don't try to take a splinter out of your brother's eye when you have a wooden board stuck in yours"(Gulp, I don't think I quoted that part very well). I should try to be a good example as a christian first before I lecture CR90 ;). Well, God bless, Belinda 03:16, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
BTW, to Nonvocal scream: Thankyou for all your wonderful messages. Maybe I am being too hasty (like Esther said, :p) but I'll certainly add you in my list! Belinda 03:19, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Thank you... I don't think I conveyed my thoughts properly as I desired above. Allow me to try again :) I am fearful that will the injection of religious context into collaborative discussion (Such as CR90's talk page message) that others might be afraid to fully express their opinions in our collaborative environment for fear they may offend. We are here for the articles! It is something to think about. Bestly, NonvocalScream (talk) 04:16, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
I have to agree with NonvocalScream here. By bringing up religion so often, as using it as a way to judge people around here, it might make people feel less comfortable discussing things openly. Additionally, they may feel like they have to be extra careful to curtail all swearing for fear they might offend. People swear, it's just a fact of life. But if they're going to be lectured for using a word like "hell," then they might be turned off to this kind of environment. Remember to judge people by the quality of their edits, not their religion :) Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I'm any better or worse at making an article than anyone else around here! It's part of who I am, but certainly not part of how I should be judged on Wikipedia. As Scream said, something to think about. Either way (talk) 04:21, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

p.s. You do great content work. NonvocalScream (talk) 04:20, 11 March 2010 (UTC) Reply

Oh my, thankyou, Either Way, for making it clear. You certainly are very smart! I'm sorry, Nonvocal Scream, I didn't quite understand what you were saying, you had such delicacy that it did not sound like a warning (like the usual ones stern Pmlineditor sends me :p). I just said it to CR90 especially, because he's my friend, and his name says "christian" itself. If you please, I will revert my message. Belinda 04:47, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

A bit of encouragement change

Hi Belinda. I hope you will not take the advice to not bring up religion seriously. Always remember that Jesus is Lord, even if others deny it or are ashamed of it! Just wanted to leave a friendly reminder that we could all use at times :) --Andrew Kelly (talk) 07:28, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Well, I will do my best not to bring it much up between people that are not christians in respect of Nonvocal Scream's so gentle warning, but with you, Andrew, of course I will bring it up to my heart's content!! You don't need to be concerned about that!! Thankyou for your encouragement. Your friendly reminder was extremely helpful. God bless, Belinda 07:42, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

P.S. By the way, how about joining my wikiproject? :P I know I shouldn't advertise my project, but the members there aren't very active...

I highly suggest not bringing it up, even with Andrew, on Wikipedia. This is not a place to have discussions about religion and spread blessings to each other. It's a place to work on developing an encyclopedia in Simple English. There's no need to constantly go around spreading "Yay Jesus" type messages as it distracts from the task at hand and, as Scream and I both mentioned above, can create a bad environment. Please consider this carefully, Either way (talk) 21:07, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Okay, but may I still add "God bless" when I write to people? Of course I won't do anything else and "go spread Yay Jesus messages". Wikipedia is NOT my space, and I know this is a wikipedia, after all. Thankyou for your note, Either Way. :) -- Belinda 21:55, 11 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Bringing the name of Jesus into an environment does not make it a bad environment, it is quite the opposite. Jesus is the light of the world and any place where His light does not shine is in darkness. Trying to do anything without submitting it to the Lord Jesus is begging for God’s judgment. Jesus is king of everything, Wikipedia included. It is a sin to try to “just write an encyclopedia” without submitting it to Christ. I do not say this to be judgmental, I say it as a warning to those who do not wish for the name of Christ to be mentioned here. Please, Belinda, do not give in to their demands!

To those of you who would like to keep the name of Christ off of Wikipedia: there are only two places your soul can be after you breathe your last: the kingdom of God or Hell. No Jesus means no Kingdom. No Jesus means Hell. May God soften your hearts. --Andrew Kelly (talk) 05:20, 12 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia is not the place to bring in religious pushing views. --Bsadowski1(Talk|Changes) 05:22, 12 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Belinda, I'm sure I should be angry at myself if I did nothing to stop people I love from going to hell, for I already love everyone in Wikipedia like my own family; but I must agree Wikipedia isn't the best place to do it. If you really want to talk about those things, it'll be best to send an email privately. Yours, Classical Esther 05:23, 12 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Andrew Kelly, I think this is better for emails. I will write a mail to you, I love your advice, but I know that pushing my belief into wikipedia won't help even a tiny bit in glorifying God. People will just get annoyed, like good-nature Bsadowski over here is already getting snappy I think. Well, anyway, I think this subject is better in mail as Esther said. Don't get worried, any of you: for people like Either way - I won't try to push my religious views :), at least not on Wikipedia; and Andrew, I'll never change the beliefs in my heart, but I don't think Wikipedia is the best place to pour out those beliefs. Check your mail soon, anyway! :) Please nobody get angry!! Belinda 05:31, 12 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

BTW, everybody, I reverted my comment. :/ I hope I will restrain myself from being so again. Belinda 06:59, 12 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Andrew is not blocked because of anything you have done; people choose their own actions, even incorrect ones. The responsibility for Andrew being blocked rests solely with Andrew. Cheers, Lauryn (utc) 10:34, 12 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Thankyou Lauryn, you are so kind and nice. :) I was about to give you a random acts of kindness barnstar, but Esther was too fast! All I can do is say thankyou. Well, anyway, I feel extremely sorry for Andrew because he was so nice to me, although he was not very helpful to wikipedia. I still think the community should try to forgive him, but I'll keep quiet before they begin thinking about blocking me, too. :) Yours sincerely, Belinda 10:36, 12 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
You will not be blocked for expression of your opinions in a non disruptive way. Jon@talk:~$ 02:10, 13 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Kenya change

Hello, I just happened to come across the Kenya article, and I was looking at its history, and saw that you had made some great improvements there so I thought I'd compliment you on that. Kansan (talk) 02:52, 13 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Hey, thanks! You deserve a random acts of kindness barnstar... but...;) People might get angry if I give too much barnstars. But still, I left something on your talk page! Belinda 03:34, 13 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Honorable Madam Belinda, I have been in touch with Wiki for more than 3 years. I have never felt emotions that I am going through after seeing your user page. I will simply call the experience as divine. Your utmost faith in Jesus and interest in science and chess has motivated me to contact you on personal level because I am computer illiterate but a great book lover and I don't know how to contribute the information which I have gathered, towards building up this great project of ours which we proudly call Wiki.If you will permit me I shall post you some interesting information on science, math and chess with requests to add articles on them. kindly add your photograph on your user page. God bless you warm regards

p.s. I see a face in the picture of the rose you have on your page. Is it really so or I am seeing an illusion


Simple News: Issue Eighteen change

 
The Simple News
Issue Eighteen
13th March 2010

Announcements

QandA
  • The QandA. Every month, a user will be interviewed by a member of the Simple News team. This idea was started by Kennedy. Interviews are generally taken by a member of the Simple News Team - to date this has included Bluegoblin7, Kennedy, Pmlineditor, Shappy and Yotcmdr.

This week, there are two interviews, with Bsadowski1 and CR90.

Click here for Bsadowski1's interview!

Click here for CR90's interview!

Administrator News
User Articles
Pmlineditor talks about P(V)GA and WikiProjects in his fifth Simple News article.

The Commander's Choice

The Commanders's Choice. For every edition, Yottie or Pmlineditor will be chosing articles that need creating, expanding or being attended to. Here is this edition's list:

Hellenism change

Actually, Belinda, I think that is the right title. English Wikipedia has its disambiguation page like that. Classical Esther 08:43, 17 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Oh, it is? Sorry, didn't know... Thanks for telling me! BTW, I'm coming to help you with Vera now... :) Belinda 09:07, 17 March 2010 (UTC)Reply


Simple News: Issue Nineteen change

 
The Simple News
Issue Nineteen
20th March 2010

Announcements

QandA
  • The QandA. Every week, one or more users will be interviewed by a member of the Simple News team. This idea was started by Kennedy. Interviews are generally taken by a member of the Simple News Team - to date this has included Bluegoblin7, Kennedy, Pmlineditor, Shappy and Yotcmdr.

This week, there are two interviews, with Classical Esther and Peterdownunder.

Click here for Classical Esther's interview!

Click here for Peterdownunder's interview!

Administrator News

User Articles
Pmlineditor talks about This Week in History and Simple News itself in his sixth Simple News article.

The Commander's Choice

The Commanders's Choice. For every edition, Yottie or Pmlineditor will be chosing articles that need creating, expanding or being attended to. Here is this edition's list:

PmlineditorBot (report errors) 11:22, 20 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Sandbox change

I'm not sure that I understand your rationale for this rollback. Testing is what the sandbox is for, and as long as it is not obscene, there's no reason to revert it. Restoring the header is fine, but giving them a warning about testing in the sandbox that tells them to test in the sandbox could seem confusing. Lauryn (utc) 13:05, 20 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Oh I'm sorry. I was using twinkle... You see, that person removed the signal, I mean, the sign that says not to write above "this" line. I hope you'll understand. Belinda 13:06, 20 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Right, they replaced the hidden text with "Hello! CAn i modify this?" which is not vandalistic. As I said previously, restoring the hidden comment/header is fine, but making them feel like they've done something wrong by warning them and telling them to do test in the sandbox (which you just warned them for doing) seems a tad improper. Do you not agree? Lauryn (utc) 13:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Yes Belinda, but whenever we warn people, we say "to learn more about Wikipedia, please use the sandbox". It would be a bit ironical if we warned them for using the sandbox. :) Classical Esther 13:08, 20 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Um okay, I'll try to fix it. Belinda 13:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
There's not really a need to actually revert edits to it - Chris G's bot reverts it automatically after an hour or so. Nifky^ 13:11, 20 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Sigh, I'm sorry. My bad. :) I fixed the warning, btw. Belinda 13:13, 20 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

"I was using twinkle..." The tool is never a valid excuse. At the end of the day, you are responsible for the edits you make regardless of whether or not you use a tool. Either way (talk) 13:15, 20 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Ah, yes, you are right, as always, wonderful Either Way! I will be careful next time, as I said above. I'm extremely repentant. I hope you'll be merciful enough to forgive! Belinda 13:17, 20 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Barnstar...or half of one anyway. change

  The Half Barnstar
For Belinda in helping me improve the article Chess. I apologize for not being here when new suggestions came up. I wasn't able to be on wiki this weekend, because I was at a karate seminar. Anyway, it looks like you and Classical Esther worked very hard on fixing up the page. I thank you for your help, it is greatly appreciated. I hope you treasure this half of a barnstar (the other half gos to Esther). It symbolizes two great editors that are able to work together well. Thanks much! Happy editing, I-on|I-Гalk |I-PrФjecГ 00:30, 21 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Yes, I heard from your sister about the karate thing. I really wanted your article Chess to become a GA, so... Thank you so much for the barnstar! It's really appreciated. I left a message also on your talk page... Belinda 05:44, 21 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Talkback change

 
Hello, Belinda. You have new messages at Pmlineditor's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Pmlineditor  09:53, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Careful with new pages, please change

Please try not to jump on new pages in their day or two. Putting a stub tag on is clearly OK, but it's not good to cut stuff out when a note on the talk page would have done just as well. I always return to new pages and add more material, including references. In this case I have also expanded the Natural History Museum page, so that its history is briefly explained. Macdonald-ross (talk) 10:35, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Exactly. What's the hurry? If you have time to fix an article, just do it. Tagging pages/deleting stuff is not appropriate when the article is brand new. Not everyone can write a GA with a single edit. Pmlineditor  10:38, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Sure. :) Sorry! Belinda 12:08, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

IRC change

It's okay about IRC. I can completely understand, for that kind of thing happens a lot with our computers. Megan|talkchanges 12:29, 22 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Heads-up change

Hi Belinda, and thanks for your work patrolling new changes. I just wanted to let you know that G4 is only used when something was deleted through RfD, not if it was speedy deleted in the past. :) Thanks again for your hard work. Cheers, Lauryn (utc) 02:25, 25 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

It was my most highest pleasure to help a little. Yes, sorry, I was trying to be fast and I accidently pressed the wrong circle, because I read it as "deleted through QD". I quickly fixed it to a nonsense article. And, it should be me thanking you, for your speedy deleting, which is even more important than tagging for deletion! Yours ever-respectfully, Belinda 02:27, 25 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
No worries, I can't think of an admin that would decline an article that is obviously speedy deletable because the criteria was wrong. :) Cheers, Lauryn (utc) 02:32, 25 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

the censorship discussion change

Bella dear, I'm a little worried for you. Just because you think differently doesn't mean you are an "insignificant, tiny" user in any way... don't demean your own opinion. And whilst Wikipedia is very much striving to ideals of free knowledge for all, do remember that these ideals may be different to your own... :P. As someone who is also young and Christian, I'd just like to encourage you to keep standing up for what you believe. Just remember that Wikipedia, a lot of the time, is not about us and what we believe; it is about what they may need to know. You do so well in complimenting others; do look after yourself too! You are certainly a valued member of this Wikipedia and I'm sure you've blessed many. Just... be careful, I suppose, even here; with the exact words you say. Online only your words count, we can't see your face or know exactly what you meant. (And here I am, speaking a jumble of my own confused thoughts- I hope I don't come across as rude!). God bless, SS(Kay) 21:01, 25 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Okay, thanks very much. :) It wasn't being rude at all! Thankyou also for calling me "dear" :p Nobody but my sister calls me that. I'm sorry I was getting rather excited, I'll be more careful when I write in discussions. God bless you too, beautiful and sweet Kay! Belinda 00:49, 26 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Korean names change

Hi Belinda, I was looking at the name on a page you helped simplify, Park heonYoung. On the enwiki it is spelled Park Hon-Yong. Which is right? I think the page title is not right either as there is no dash and no break between Hon and Yong. Peterdownunder (talk) 08:51, 27 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Thankyou for your kind point-out, Peter; I was about to move it. Yes, there should be a dash and a break between Hon and Yong, you are very right! How smart you are, dear Peterdownunder, and should I move the article? Yours respectfully, Belinda 08:53, 27 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
  Done I fix'd it, I hope I did it right as you said. I'm not a real Korean expert myself, I like to talk more in english and everything, but probably it is correct. :) God bless, Belinda 08:56, 27 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
Your are one of the only Korean experts I know, and good work. --Peterdownunder (talk) 08:58, 27 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Reverting change

I don't think that this edit http://simple.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ejaculation&diff=2090806&oldid=2090805 was vandalism, and that the user should not have received a vandalism warning on their talk page. Remember that Wikipedia is not censored, and since the edit was biologically correct (and I might even say necessary to best explain the subject), it did not constitute vandalism. Kansan (talk) 19:00, 27 March 2010 (UTC)Reply

Your ideas of what is "annoying" has nothing to do with Wikipedia. Please don't discourage good editors by warning them inappropriately. What's the problem in continuing with article work rather than needlessly reverting correct edits? Please read this page so that you can understand what vandalism is. Pmlineditor  08:16, 28 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
I agree with you; for you are wise, and I did not put up a proper explanation. I read the page you recommended to me, smart Pmlineditor, and I'm extremely sorry, I will be more careful before I do such foolish mistakes twice and over again. Once again, I am a very clumsy person so I make many mistakes. I hope I won't make them again. Yours repentant and respectfully, Belinda 13:05, 28 March 2010 (UTC)Reply
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