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Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style

"Other websites" vs. "External links"Edit

There is a four year old discussion about the name of the header of the list of external links to other websites at the end of an article. Is it really mandatory to use "Other websites" instead of "External links" as in the Complex English Wikipedia? If not, could "External links" be listed as an alternative to "Other websites"? --Лъчезар (talk) 14:31, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

The decision was made four years ago, and is now part of our Manual of Style. External links should not be used. I think there are some bots out there that will probably change it back to "Other websites" automatically. --Peterdownunder (talk) 21:48, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Japan chronology projectsEdit

I have used Japanese language kanji and a diacritic (en:macron) in these articles:

This writing is consistent with en:Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan Manual of Style. Is this good or appropriate for simple:Wikipedia?

Do you have comments? questions? suggestions? --Tenmei (talk) 14:53, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

That aspect seems good. Macdonald-ross (talk) 04:59, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Should restaurant/pub/bar etc. names be italicized?Edit

I didn't find this in the "Italics" section. Should they? Y'all should add this info to the guidelines page for other users like me who'd have such a question. --TheBearPaw (talk) 13:35, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

  • Usually names of places aren't. Nifky^ 13:49, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

First sentenceEdit

There's nothing wrong in principle with this:

"If the article is about a foreign person or place, the name in the original language(s) should be given in parentheses immediately after the title is first mentioned. Link the name of the language, followed by a colon (:), just before the native name".

Except that, in practice, it often makes the first sentence hard to read. If that happens, a good tactic is to put the stuff in a f/note. Some names have been used in several other languages, each with its own link. Similarly, if the key term of a title has several complex alternatives, it may be right to delay listing them. This means putting them in a later sentence, or even a f/note.

The rule is: the first sentence is mighty important: do nothing that would make it harder to read. All good writers know this is vital, and so should we, especially in Simple. Macdonald-ross (talk) 10:07, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

"See also" vs "Other pages"Edit

Continues from here. πr2 (talk • changes) 17:55, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking more of "Related pages" because it's more specific than "Other pages" and "Related" (Relation) is on the Basic English word list. Battleaxe9872 / 18:17, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
I like that. πr2 (talk • changes) 18:21, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
OK with me. Macdonald-ross (talk) 18:25, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Related pages is better as it does suggest that the pages have something in common, members of the same "family". Other pages could be taken to mean just that, it is another page. --Peterdownunder (talk) 22:47, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
I think the same should go for "Other Websites" too, as their essentially the same. Battleaxe9872 / 20:06, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
So we would now have "Related pages" and "Related websites". Good idea. --Peterdownunder (talk) 23:26, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

<-Take this back to ST please. Griffinofwales (talk) 23:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

  Done Moved back to Simple Talk for a more thorough consensus. Battleaxe9872 / 00:06, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

You should have left the conversation where it is, its been linked to numerous times. If people haven't responded its because they either don't care or think status quo is ok. -DJSasso (talk) 00:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

+1 Jon@talk:~$ 00:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC) Other pages is fine. Jon@talk:~$ 00:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Personally I prefer related pages since I am being asked. Other pages is far to vague. -DJSasso (talk) 00:40, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Agree for the same reason as DJ. Griffinofwales (talk) 02:16, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Well, it's simple enough, and more specific. :) Yes, I think "related" is better. —Clementina talk 02:19, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Split?Edit

Should this page be split into other pages, like on the English Wikipedia? --- cymru lass (talk to me)(see my edits) 18:24, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think so. This is hardly ever used or edited, and splitting it would mean there would be many more pages to take care of, rather than just this one. We need to make this more functional and useful, rather than splitting it up; that is, unless you can give us a good reason. Just because it's split on en is not a good reason for us to do the same, unless there is a reason why we should do it, too. EhJJTALK 18:43, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

PronunciationEdit

I think the advice we give here is absolute nonsense. What percentage of readers can interpret IPA symbols? It isn't even sensible for English wiki, let alone Simple. We should give a simple phonetic spelling using regular alphabetic characters, and that only if it is really needed. Much superior is the use of a recorded spoken word, but that we cannot regularly organise. Macdonald-ross (talk) 17:54, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

And how to handle dialects and accents? (As in aunt or tomato?) IPA does solve the problem, I believe, but only by becoming so ... crazy ... that few people know how to use it. I think pronunciations should just not be used except for words from systems where everyone sufficiently interested will know the system (pinyin for Chinese words, etc.). --Philosopher Let us reason together. 04:25, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
I disagree. I am particularly concerned with proper nouns. There are a lot of Americans, Australians etc. (not to mention people in countries where English is not the first language) the pronunciation of whose names is not obvious based on English pronunciation. Yet, we should tell our readers how to pronounce the names of people like J. S. Bach and Charles Simic. Kdammers (talk) 21:29, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
I think the place for pronunciation info is either in Wiktionary or in sound files on Wikimedia Commons. If we have infoboxes that provide a place to include it, it can go there, too. I also think the IPA method is difficult to work with from both sides. As for phonetic spelling, there are too many different ways to represent sounds phonetically. Besides that, spelling given according to English phonetics wouldn't make sense to people who don't know English well (which includes many of our readers). I see this a lot with the Spanish-speaking student that I tutor in English: I've learned to let her write her own phonetic spelling according to pronunciation of the language she knows, because if I write what looks phonetically right to me, it doesn't always help her. --Auntof6 (talk) 23:20, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

TimeEdit

The suggested a.m./PM style seems overly restrictive.

"The Chicago Manual of Style and Garner's Modern American Usage: 4 p.m. or 4 PM (with PM in small capitals)

The Gregg Reference Manual: 4 p.m. or 4 P.M. (with PM in small capitals)"

- See more at: http://www.businesswritingblog.com/business_writing/2009/06/what-is-the-correct-time-am-pm-am-pm-am-pm-.html#sthash.vt0hlgTR.dpuf Kdammers (talk) 18:09, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Different organizations have different style guidelines. Many of the ones I see say either lower case or small capitals. Small capitals are more difficult to do on keyboards, so that makes lower case a better choice. Is there a particular reason this is a problem? --Auntof6 (talk) 19:06, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
Agree with lower case. Small caps not right here: book typography is styled with more sophisticated software than ours. (it is possible to build macros with a standard keyboard, but we should not base our style guide on that) I prefer 9am style. There's no real reason for spaces and full points. Over-fussiness is all over WP typography styles. Macdonald-ross (talk) 10:28, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

What is "the Continental way"?Edit

Section Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Scientific style says:

"The Wikipedia rule for commas and periods in numbers is, for example, 12,345,678.901 — not the Continental way."

What does "the Continental way" mean? I searched both Simple and En Wikipedia and could not really find a clear answer. My best guess is "European" (from en:International_System_of_Units). Anyone know? Zeniff (talk) 08:52, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

I think the reference to continental way means the same as European "style" (numbers and comma use). Quoting a web page: "commas are decimal points and decimals commas, so a euro and a half is €1,50 and there are 5.280 feet in a mile. (Britain and Ireland use commas and decimal points like North America.)" User:Rus793 (talk) 13:12, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for the explanation and example! It makes sense now:) Zeniff (talk) 04:47, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Piped link for WikilinkEdit

I improved several explanations in the Wikilinking section. It still needs an example of why and how to write a piped link. Would appreciate some help on this. -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:16, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

s/he vs. theyEdit

The page does not seem to mention whether s/he or they should be used in cases to refer to one person, but the gender is unknown. I think s/he is best because "they" as plural isn't grammatically correct in traditional English, and, while it may be evolving, it still might not be best for the simple english wikipedia. But I see some users replacing "he or she" and similar stuff with "they". Is there a known correct one, and if not, should we have a consensus on it? Computer Fizz (talk) 05:46, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

As with my recent change to this very page, I like to reword sentences to avoid this issue. There are different ways to do it. One is to just make things plural to begin with ("When students are absent, they must bring a note the next day" instead of "When a student is absent, he or she must bring a note the next day"). Another way, since you mention traditional English, is to use masculine pronouns for everything: that's the traditional way, but maybe we don't want to do that. And that's only for subject pronouns (he/she); there are also object pronouns (him/her) to consider. --Auntof6 (talk) 06:45, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
@Auntof6: About the part at the end...what i'm referring to is the usage of "they" as gender-neutral instead of plural. I apologize if i'm not communicating clearly. I   Support the rewording thing though, although there should be a backup incase that isn't possible for some reason. Computer Fizz (talk) 06:55, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
@Computer Fizz: I understood what you were talking about. My point in my last sentence above was that the form of object pronouns needs to match the form of subject pronouns. In other words, if you use the gender-neutral subject pronoun they for a given person, then you also use the gender-neutral object pronoun them for that person. --Auntof6 (talk) 19:51, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
yeah that makes sense. but what i'm talking about is whether "they" should be allowed as a genderneutral form (or only plural). Computer Fizz (talk) 20:13, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
They isn't just plural and never has been. They has been used as genderneutral for centuries, most often in the case where the gender is unknown. This isn't a new thing. -DJSasso (talk) 11:45, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

gender for transgender peopleEdit

I recently found these edits where an IP changed all gender instances of a biological man but transgender woman from "she" to "he". Which is best to use? Computer Fizz (talk) 18:55, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

We use feminine pronouns for transwomen and masculine pronouns for transmen. I just looked at en:Caitlyn Jenner and it uses feminine pronouns throughout, including in the sections about her life before she came out as transgender. The exception might be if the person is known to prefer something different. --Auntof6 (talk) 19:43, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
@Auntof6: So should i add this stuff to the main MoS page? Computer Fizz (talk) 20:59, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
@Computer Fizz: Not unilaterally. What I described is our practice, but people should be allowed to comment if it's going to be made a guideline. Yes, we're already having a discussion here, but I only saw your question because I happen to have this page on my watchlist -- most people probably don't watch it. I recommend asking at Simple talk for people to comment here. --Auntof6 (talk) 04:34, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
Just incase you were unaware Computer Fizz since we don't mention it in our MOS we use en.wiki's at en:MOS:GENDERID per Wikipedia:Follow English Wikipedia. -DJSasso (talk) 10:56, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@Djsasso: are you saying it should be kept that way? or is it just information. Computer Fizz (talk) 16:54, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
You were asking a question on what should be used. I was giving you information that answers your question since you didn't know what to use. Changing the MOS it is another matter, I would just copy the en.wiki MOS:GENERID section over with any needed simplification. I see no reason to be any different than them on this topic. -DJSasso (talk) 16:57, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@Djsasso: Can you import the page then and i'll work on simplifying it? Computer Fizz (talk) 03:52, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
It's part of another page. You can just copy it from there and reword it and paste it here mentioning in your edit summary where it came from. -DJSasso (talk) 15:28, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
I have copied over the en.version MOS entry for this. Could still use some simplification but it can be found at Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Gender identity. -DJSasso (talk) 17:32, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
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