Talk:My Lai Massacre
IPA
changeI do not know tones in Vietnamese, or in IPA. Ionius added the numeric IPA for the tones, but I want the symbols there for proper IPA. Can someone inform me about this, because I'll probably have to know this in the future for Encyclopædia Phonetica. Also, the end of the "ai" digraph is not a palatal approximant, but a near-close near-front unrounded vowel. Ionas D. Rand 00:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am basing this on the English article on Việtnamese orthography. -Ionius Mundus 01:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think "mee lye" is way more understandable than "mi.315'lɐːj33". At least it's letters. · Tygartl1·talk· 17:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- no, it doesn't even represent the sound accurately. IPA is the standard used in English wikipedia. -Ionius Mundus 20:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm well aware that that's the standard, but how are you supposed to pronounce numbers? How do numbers accurately represent the sound? It doesn't make any sense. I don't see anything about numbers on the IPA page. It certainly wouldn't be helpful to me, but by all means, go ahead and keep it. · Tygartl1·talk· 20:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, the numbers should be superscript, which I don't know how to do, but they make perfect sense. Each number represents a pitch. Multiple numbers represent a tone countour (when tone rises or falls like a curve). Look at Vietnamese Orthography on English wikipeidia and go to the tone section. -Ionius Mundus 20:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- So basically what you're saying is that you have to have a degree in phonetics or have been trained rigorously from an early age for spelling bees to have a clue how to pronounce these things from those marks. They aren't taught in schools in the US, I would hazard a guess they aren't taught in schools in Europe. I took French and Spanish classes in college and was not taught the marks to help me learn the languages. So, from a simple English standpoint, they are not simple, and do not help people who already do not know what the marks mean to pronounce them. Is anything I claim not accurate? I could be wrong but I don't see them as an aid for language learners. - BrownE34 talk contribs 21:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- ...Okay, I don't recall saying I had a degree in anything, and have taken a look back at everything I've written just to make sure. Furthermore, what you said about spelling bees doesn't even make a shred of sense. You speak of learning how to pronounce English words so that I know how to spell them (?). There is only a weak connection between English spelling and pronunciation. IPA is very easy to learn if you just try learning it. Unlike the terrible Enlgish orthography, every IPA symbol represents its own sound. There are no digraphs or ambiguities. It is far from rigorous, unlike English spelling. -Ionius Mundus 21:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Ionius... I couldn't have said it better myself. Ionas Rand [i.'ɔ.na.sız tɔk] 07:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you. -Ionius Mundus 12:21, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
- I have to agree with Ionius... I couldn't have said it better myself. Ionas Rand [i.'ɔ.na.sız tɔk] 07:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
- ...Okay, I don't recall saying I had a degree in anything, and have taken a look back at everything I've written just to make sure. Furthermore, what you said about spelling bees doesn't even make a shred of sense. You speak of learning how to pronounce English words so that I know how to spell them (?). There is only a weak connection between English spelling and pronunciation. IPA is very easy to learn if you just try learning it. Unlike the terrible Enlgish orthography, every IPA symbol represents its own sound. There are no digraphs or ambiguities. It is far from rigorous, unlike English spelling. -Ionius Mundus 21:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- So basically what you're saying is that you have to have a degree in phonetics or have been trained rigorously from an early age for spelling bees to have a clue how to pronounce these things from those marks. They aren't taught in schools in the US, I would hazard a guess they aren't taught in schools in Europe. I took French and Spanish classes in college and was not taught the marks to help me learn the languages. So, from a simple English standpoint, they are not simple, and do not help people who already do not know what the marks mean to pronounce them. Is anything I claim not accurate? I could be wrong but I don't see them as an aid for language learners. - BrownE34 talk contribs 21:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- If you want, I'll use the more technical alternative, [mi.˧˩˥'lɐːj˧˧], but I fear that it is not as widespread in use in wikipedia and may not even show up right on many a browser. -Ionius Mundus 21:01, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- That just shows up as boxes on mine. Could just be my computer though. What's wrong with what they use on English: {{IPA|[miː laɪ]}}, which shows up as [miː laɪ]? And perhaps even using the .ogg file for pronunciation? · Tygartl1·talk· 21:08, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- What they've got on English wikipedia is incorrect according to the English page on Việtnamese phonology. That should be changed. I guess numbers are easier than the more technical symbols, though I personally think the alternative symbols look much nicer and less cluttered. On my computer they don't show up right on this talk page but they work fine in the actual article. Also, .ogg files don't work on my computer. -Ionius Mundus 21:37, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- That just shows up as boxes on mine. Could just be my computer though. What's wrong with what they use on English: {{IPA|[miː laɪ]}}, which shows up as [miː laɪ]? And perhaps even using the .ogg file for pronunciation? · Tygartl1·talk· 21:08, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, the numbers should be superscript, which I don't know how to do, but they make perfect sense. Each number represents a pitch. Multiple numbers represent a tone countour (when tone rises or falls like a curve). Look at Vietnamese Orthography on English wikipeidia and go to the tone section. -Ionius Mundus 20:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm well aware that that's the standard, but how are you supposed to pronounce numbers? How do numbers accurately represent the sound? It doesn't make any sense. I don't see anything about numbers on the IPA page. It certainly wouldn't be helpful to me, but by all means, go ahead and keep it. · Tygartl1·talk· 20:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- no, it doesn't even represent the sound accurately. IPA is the standard used in English wikipedia. -Ionius Mundus 20:34, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think "mee lye" is way more understandable than "mi.315'lɐːj33". At least it's letters. · Tygartl1·talk· 17:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Vietnamese is a tonal language, so there are IPA marks that represent the tones. Those numbers are coded with symbols, and should not be used. Since the accurate IPA pronunciation in Vietnamese is [mi.˧˩˥'lɐːj˧˧], and the English pronunciation (since English is not tonal), is [miː laɪ]. Use IPA, because it is stupid and hard to understand (for me) to use MEE-LYE as pronunciation, because that might mean [miː laɪ], or it might mean [me.e.lɪ.e], [me.e.li.ɛ], [me.e.li.e], or even [me.e.ly.ɛ], the latter beïng a rounded "ee" sound, the closest thing in English is the whole sound in the colloquialism "eeuw", signifying disgust, would be [y] or [iy]. Ionas Rand [i.'ɔ.na.sız tɔk] 21:37, 25 August 2007 (UTC)