Dympies

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Latest comment: 2 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

@LukeEmilyy, I can't understand the logic of this new thread with a silly heading when you are well aware that the content in question was being discussed in above thread titled "Recent removal of content from Early References". And remember, admins won't help with the content, they are as much contributors here as you and me. Anyways, I have not problem repeating the same things again. Please go through the first lead line of Rajput :

Template:Talk-quote. Almost all scholars say that the term "Rajput" is derived from "Rajputra". But you disagree!

From Upinder Singh:

Template:Talk-quote But again, you disagree!

From Andre Wink (the very same source I have cited in disputed content: Template:Talk-quote

From Irfan Habib :

Template:Talk-quote

But you disagree!

From J. S. Grewal (the same source cited in "disputed content") : Template:Talk-quote

But you disagree!

From Andre Wink (again the same source I have cited in "disputed content"):

Template:Talk-quote

If you disagree with these modern scholars, then what you are left with is WP:OR and its strange that an experienced editor like you has to be reminded again and again about this basic wiki principle.

Now coming to the quote you have provided, how exactly do you think the "disputed content" contradicts Tanuja Kothiyal. She talks about the humble background of Rajputs and the "disputed content" too talks about Rajputras being mercenary soldiers, not some kings or princes. The content in question is not supposed to be disputed but you 2-3 editors are trying to extract something out of nothing. Dympies (talk) 17:36, 27 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Reply2

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Reoly 3

REOLY

Reply 6

1- In this edit to Chitpavan Brahmins page, he added as many as five new citations to a line taking the total number of citations to 8 from existing 3. He also changed the main body by adding the terms like parvenu and newcomers to the Brahmin class . One of the newly added citations used the term parvenu but he made this edit in such a way that readers get a false impression that as many as eight citations support the statement. This was a classic case of WP:CITEBOMB. This was not the only shortcoming of this edit. None of the eight citations had said that Chitpavan Brahmins were newcomers to the "Brahmin" class but he synthesized the stuff by saying that Chitpavans were considered "newcomers to the Brahmin class". He was doing it to push his agenda that Chitpavan Brahmins were of non-Brahmin origin. His edit history in Chitpavan Brahmins confirms this.

RfC: Should we mention "Rajputs" as most successful claimants of Kshatriya status?

Latest comment: 3 days ago2 comments1 person in discussion

{{rfc|soc} Following content was added by me in Kshatriya#Modern era in recent past[1], should this statement be restored :

Though many communities claimed Kshatriya status,^[1] the Rajputs were most successful in attaining it.^[2]

Dympies (talk) 12:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Previous discussions

Talk:Kshatriya#My_edits

Responses

Support: The citations completely support the content. The opposers of content say that Rajput is just like any other community which tried to Sanskritise itself. But thats not true. When it comes to the Kshatriya concept, Rajput is not just another community. Unlike other groups whose claims to the Kshatriya status were either unsuccessful or half-successful, Rajputs were successful or "most successful", to be precise.

It is believed that the most fanatical claims for Kshatriya status came from Rajputs which distinguishes them from the rest of Indian society.^[3]^[4] While the origin of Rajputs may be debatable or disputed, Rajputs' Kshatriya status is undisputed, according to scholars.^[5]^[6]^[7] Writers often refer to Rajputs as "the modern representatives of Kshatriya varna".^[8]^[9] In fact, some scholars have noted that the terms rajput and kshatriya have been used as synonyms historically as well as contemporarily.^[10]^[11]^[12]^[13]^[14] Mughals too acknowledged the Kshatriya status of Rajputs.^[15]^[16]

These scholarly tertiary sources establish a strong link between Kshatriya and Rajput. Considering all this, mentioning Rajput on this page and too, in the manner proposed, should not be a big deal. Dympies (talk) 12:41, 24 December 2024 (UTC)Reply

Discussion

References

↑ Ashok K. Pankaj, Ajit K. Pandey, ed. (2018). Dalits, Subalternity and Social Change in India. Routledge. By the 1990s, OBCs in North India had acquired education, government jobs, land and economic resources and political power that edged them towards "sanskritization". Many of them started claiming Kshatriya status and looked for a social and religious identity closer to that of the upper caste Hindus.
↑
- "Jati". Britannica encyclopaedia. Retrieved 6 November 2024. In different parts of India, certain caste groups have sought respectability within the varna system by claiming membership in a particular varna. Typical and most successful was the claim of the Rajputs that they were the Kshatriyas, or nobles, of the second varna
- Amod Jayant Lele (2001). Hindutva and Singapore Confucianism as Projects of Political Legitimation. Cornell University Press. p. 133. Many jatis have tried to claim Kshatriya status, with varying degrees of success, the most successful being the Rajputs.
- Luna Sabastian (2022). "Women, Violence, Sovereignty:"Rakshasa" Marriage by Capture in Modern Indian Political Thought". Modern Intellectual History. Cambridge University Press: 769. doi:10.1017/S1479244321000391. It was duly observed among the Rajputs, India's most successful claimants to Kshatriya status in the present age, to the point where "Rajput" even came to appropriate the meaning and assimilative function of "Kshatriya."
- Mayer, A. (2023). Caste and Kinship in Central India: A Village and its Region. University of California Press. p. 63. ISBN 978-0-520-31349-1. Retrieved 2024-11-07. The Rajputs, of course, are the prime Kshatriya caste. Some maintain that they are descendants of the only people who did not deny their true Kshatriya status and managed to escape from Parasurama; others say that they changed their name to Rajput to deceive Parasurama, but alone of the Kshatriyas kept on with their martial occupation. They appear in any case to have the strongest claim to Kshatriya status.
- Hira Singh (2014). Recasting Caste: From the Sacred to the Profane. SAGE Publications. p. 108. ISBN 8132119800. One, the decline of the Vaishyas and two, the emergence of the Rajputs, originally a diverse group who successfully claimed the Kshatriya identity, with the compliance of the Brahmans in return for land grants and other material gains.
- Carl Skutsch, ed. (2013). Encyclopedia of the World's Minorities. Routledge. p. 600. ISBN 1135193959. During this time, the Rajputs of Rajasthan were a major force in medieval Indian society and politics. Their origin are not known, but it is thought that they came from abroad. In either case they acquired lunar and solar connections and kshatriya status.
- Abraham Eraly (2011). The First Spring: The Golden Age of India. Penguin UK. ISBN 8184755694. Numerous ruling families all over the subcontinent were thus invested with the Kshatriya status over the centuries. In North India, many of the migrants and tribesmen who became Kshatriyas by this process came to be known as Rajputs, a people entirely unknown before the sixth century CE, but who, by the early medieval times, came to be regarded as the very epitome of the Kshatriya varna. These people were evidently metamorphosed as Kshatriyas by Brahminical rites.
- Kaushik Roy (2021). A Global History of Pre-Modern Warfare: Before the Rise of the West, 10,000 BCE–1500 CE. Routledge. ISBN 1000432122. Rajput- Originally known as thakurs, who were high caste landowners and became the hereditary warrior community. They acquired Kshatriya status (second highest caste in the fourfold Hindu hierarchical varna system).
↑ Pradeep Barua (2005). The state at war in South Asia. University of Nebraska Press. p. 24. What made the Rajputs stand out from the rest of Indian society was not their foreign origins but their fanatical attempts to assert their Kshatriya status.
↑ Joyce E. Salisbury, Nancy Sullivan (2008). The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Global Medieval Life and Culture. ABC-CLIO. p. 831. The Rajputs considered them to be members of the ancient Kshatriya varna and were known for their fanatical attempts to assert their Kshatriya status. This assertion distinguished the Rajputs from other similar castes who migrated from outside India.
↑ Dwijendra Tripathi (1984). Business Communities of India: A Historical Perspective. Manohar. The Rajputs were one caste which had an undisputed claim to belong to Kshatriya varna.
↑ Harish Damodaran (2008). "Banias and Beyond: The Dynamics of Caste and Big Business in Modern India". CASI Working Paper Series. CASI (University of Pennsylvania). That leads to an imperfect articulation of the classical varna system in these regions. This is in direct contrast to mainland Gujarat or the Hindi-speaking belt, where the Rajputs/Thakurs can claim an undisputed Kshatriya legacy.
↑ Robert W. Stern (2003). Changing India: Bourgeois Revolution on the Subcontinent. Cambridge University Press. p. 68. In other parts, Rajput noblemen of indisputable Kshatriya varna demanded hierarchical precedence over Brahmins.
↑ Charles Fawcett (1947). The Travels of the Abbé Carré in India and the Near East, 1672 to 1674. Taylor & Francis. The Rajputs (as opposed to other Hindu soldiers, who are classed as Sudras) are accepted by popular opinion as the modern representatives of Kshatriya, or warrior, caste...
↑ John Mcleod, Kunwar P Bhatnagar (2001). "The deaths of Prithviraj". South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies 24 (2), 91-105, 2001. Taylor & Francis: 91-105. As the modern representatives of the Kshatriyas, the Rajputs regard themselves as natural rulers and warriors, and it is expected that their lives will demonstrate leadership and martial skill.
↑ Rima Hooja (2006). A History of Rajasthan. Rupa and Co. p. 181. However, epigraphical and literary evidence would indicate that it was probably sometime during the c. twelfth-fourteenth centuries AD period that the usage of terms like Rajputra, Kshatriya, Rautt and similar words denoting connections with kingship, and Rajput became established as more or less synonymous words.
↑ Charles Miller (2024). "Martial races as clubs? The institutional logic of the martial race system of British India". Rationality and Society. SAGE journals. In fact, the British considered Rajput to be synonymous with the kshatriya warrior caste which they traced back to India's earliest times.
↑ Kanchan Chandra (2019). Why Ethnic Parties Succeed: Patronage and Ethnic Head Counts in India. Cambridge University Press. p. 289. The category "Rajput" is generally used interchangeably with the category "Kshatriya" to describe those who belong to the "twice-born" warrior caste.
↑ "Rajputs". encyclopedia.com. Retrieved 14 December 2024. ALTERNATE NAMES: Ksatriya caste
↑ Kumar Suresh Singh (1996). Communities, Segments, Synonyms, Surnames and Titles. Anthropological Survey of India. p. 1706. Rajput synonyms: Chhatri, Kshatriya, Thakur
↑ Prathama Banerjee, ed. (2024). Textual Lives of Caste Across the Ages: Hierarchy, Humanity and Equality in Indian History. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 186. In his descriptions of caste groups, Abu'l Fazal devotes more space to the kshatriyas and includes the Rajputs, allies of the Mughals, in this group.
↑ Barbara D. Metcalf, Thomas R. Metcalf (2002). A Concise History of India. Cambridge University Press. p. 25. Under the Mughals, the term Rajput had become the symbol of legitimate kshatriya rule,...

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[1] Ashok K. Pankaj, Ajit K. Pandey, ed. (2018). Dalits, Subalternity and Social Change in India. Routledge. By the 1990s, OBCs in North India had acquired education, government jobs, land and economic resources and political power that edged them towards "sanskritization". Many of them started claiming Kshatriya status and looked for a social and religious identity closer to that of the upper caste Hindus.

[2] 
"Jati". Britannica encyclopaedia. Retrieved 6 November 2024. In different parts of India, certain caste groups have sought respectability within the varna system by claiming membership in a particular varna. Typical and most successful was the claim of the Rajputs that they were the Kshatriyas, or nobles, of the second varna

Amod Jayant Lele (2001). Hindutva and Singapore Confucianism as Projects of Political Legitimation. Cornell University Press. p. 133. Many jatis have tried to claim Kshatriya status, with varying degrees of success, the most successful being the Rajputs.

Luna Sabastian (2022). "Women, Violence, Sovereignty:"Rakshasa" Marriage by Capture in Modern Indian Political Thought". Modern Intellectual History. Cambridge University Press: 769. doi:10.1017/S1479244321000391. It was duly observed among the Rajputs, India's most successful claimants to Kshatriya status in the present age, to the point where "Rajput" even came to appropriate the meaning and assimilative function of "Kshatriya."

Mayer, A. (2023). Caste and Kinship in Central India: A Village and its Region. University of California Press. p. 63. ISBN 978-0-520-31349-1. Retrieved 2024-11-07. The Rajputs, of course, are the prime Kshatriya caste. Some maintain that they are descendants of the only people who did not deny their true Kshatriya status and managed to escape from Parasurama; others say that they changed their name to Rajput to deceive Parasurama, but alone of the Kshatriyas kept on with their martial occupation. They appear in any case to have the strongest claim to Kshatriya status.

Hira Singh (2014). Recasting Caste: From the Sacred to the Profane. SAGE Publications. p. 108. ISBN 8132119800. One, the decline of the Vaishyas and two, the emergence of the Rajputs, originally a diverse group who successfully claimed the Kshatriya identity, with the compliance of the Brahmans in return for land grants and other material gains.

Carl Skutsch, ed. (2013). Encyclopedia of the World's Minorities. Routledge. p. 600. ISBN 1135193959. During this time, the Rajputs of Rajasthan were a major force in medieval Indian society and politics. Their origin are not known, but it is thought that they came from abroad. In either case they acquired lunar and solar connections and kshatriya status.

Abraham Eraly (2011). The First Spring: The Golden Age of India. Penguin UK. ISBN 8184755694. Numerous ruling families all over the subcontinent were thus invested with the Kshatriya status over the centuries. In North India, many of the migrants and tribesmen who became Kshatriyas by this process came to be known as Rajputs, a people entirely unknown before the sixth century CE, but who, by the early medieval times, came to be regarded as the very epitome of the Kshatriya varna. These people were evidently metamorphosed as Kshatriyas by Brahminical rites.

Kaushik Roy (2021). A Global History of Pre-Modern Warfare: Before the Rise of the West, 10,000 BCE–1500 CE. Routledge. ISBN 1000432122. Rajput- Originally known as thakurs, who were high caste landowners and became the hereditary warrior community. They acquired Kshatriya status (second highest caste in the fourfold Hindu hierarchical varna system).

[3] "Jati". Britannica encyclopaedia. Retrieved 6 November 2024. In different parts of India, certain caste groups have sought respectability within the varna system by claiming membership in a particular varna. Typical and most successful was the claim of the Rajputs that they were the Kshatriyas, or nobles, of the second varna

[4] Amod Jayant Lele (2001). Hindutva and Singapore Confucianism as Projects of Political Legitimation. Cornell University Press. p. 133. Many jatis have tried to claim Kshatriya status, with varying degrees of success, the most successful being the Rajputs.

[5] Luna Sabastian (2022). "Women, Violence, Sovereignty:"Rakshasa" Marriage by Capture in Modern Indian Political Thought". Modern Intellectual History. Cambridge University Press: 769. doi:10.1017/S1479244321000391. It was duly observed among the Rajputs, India's most successful claimants to Kshatriya status in the present age, to the point where "Rajput" even came to appropriate the meaning and assimilative function of "Kshatriya."

[6] Mayer, A. (2023). Caste and Kinship in Central India: A Village and its Region. University of California Press. p. 63. ISBN 978-0-520-31349-1. Retrieved 2024-11-07. The Rajputs, of course, are the prime Kshatriya caste. Some maintain that they are descendants of the only people who did not deny their true Kshatriya status and managed to escape from Parasurama; others say that they changed their name to Rajput to deceive Parasurama, but alone of the Kshatriyas kept on with their martial occupation. They appear in any case to have the strongest claim to Kshatriya status.

[7] Hira Singh (2014). Recasting Caste: From the Sacred to the Profane. SAGE Publications. p. 108. ISBN 8132119800. One, the decline of the Vaishyas and two, the emergence of the Rajputs, originally a diverse group who successfully claimed the Kshatriya identity, with the compliance of the Brahmans in return for land grants and other material gains.

[8] Carl Skutsch, ed. (2013). Encyclopedia of the World's Minorities. Routledge. p. 600. ISBN 1135193959. During this time, the Rajputs of Rajasthan were a major force in medieval Indian society and politics. Their origin are not known, but it is thought that they came from abroad. In either case they acquired lunar and solar connections and kshatriya status.

[9] Abraham Eraly (2011). The First Spring: The Golden Age of India. Penguin UK. ISBN 8184755694. Numerous ruling families all over the subcontinent were thus invested with the Kshatriya status over the centuries. In North India, many of the migrants and tribesmen who became Kshatriyas by this process came to be known as Rajputs, a people entirely unknown before the sixth century CE, but who, by the early medieval times, came to be regarded as the very epitome of the Kshatriya varna. These people were evidently metamorphosed as Kshatriyas by Brahminical rites.

[10] Kaushik Roy (2021). A Global History of Pre-Modern Warfare: Before the Rise of the West, 10,000 BCE–1500 CE. Routledge. ISBN 1000432122. Rajput- Originally known as thakurs, who were high caste landowners and became the hereditary warrior community. They acquired Kshatriya status (second highest caste in the fourfold Hindu hierarchical varna system).

[3] Pradeep Barua (2005). The state at war in South Asia. University of Nebraska Press. p. 24. What made the Rajputs stand out from the rest of Indian society was not their foreign origins but their fanatical attempts to assert their Kshatriya status.

[4] Joyce E. Salisbury, Nancy Sullivan (2008). The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Global Medieval Life and Culture. ABC-CLIO. p. 831. The Rajputs considered them to be members of the ancient Kshatriya varna and were known for their fanatical attempts to assert their Kshatriya status. This assertion distinguished the Rajputs from other similar castes who migrated from outside India.

[5] Dwijendra Tripathi (1984). Business Communities of India: A Historical Perspective. Manohar. The Rajputs were one caste which had an undisputed claim to belong to Kshatriya varna.

[6] Harish Damodaran (2008). "Banias and Beyond: The Dynamics of Caste and Big Business in Modern India". CASI Working Paper Series. CASI (University of Pennsylvania). That leads to an imperfect articulation of the classical varna system in these regions. This is in direct contrast to mainland Gujarat or the Hindi-speaking belt, where the Rajputs/Thakurs can claim an undisputed Kshatriya legacy.

[7] Robert W. Stern (2003). Changing India: Bourgeois Revolution on the Subcontinent. Cambridge University Press. p. 68. In other parts, Rajput noblemen of indisputable Kshatriya varna demanded hierarchical precedence over Brahmins.

[8] Charles Fawcett (1947). The Travels of the Abbé Carré in India and the Near East, 1672 to 1674. Taylor & Francis. The Rajputs (as opposed to other Hindu soldiers, who are classed as Sudras) are accepted by popular opinion as the modern representatives of Kshatriya, or warrior, caste...

[9] John Mcleod, Kunwar P Bhatnagar (2001). "The deaths of Prithviraj". South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies 24 (2), 91-105, 2001. Taylor & Francis: 91-105. As the modern representatives of the Kshatriyas, the Rajputs regard themselves as natural rulers and warriors, and it is expected that their lives will demonstrate leadership and martial skill.

[10] Rima Hooja (2006). A History of Rajasthan. Rupa and Co. p. 181. However, epigraphical and literary evidence would indicate that it was probably sometime during the c. twelfth-fourteenth centuries AD period that the usage of terms like Rajputra, Kshatriya, Rautt and similar words denoting connections with kingship, and Rajput became established as more or less synonymous words.

[11] Charles Miller (2024). "Martial races as clubs? The institutional logic of the martial race system of British India". Rationality and Society. SAGE journals. In fact, the British considered Rajput to be synonymous with the kshatriya warrior caste which they traced back to India's earliest times.

[12] Kanchan Chandra (2019). Why Ethnic Parties Succeed: Patronage and Ethnic Head Counts in India. Cambridge University Press. p. 289. The category "Rajput" is generally used interchangeably with the category "Kshatriya" to describe those who belong to the "twice-born" warrior caste.

[13] "Rajputs". encyclopedia.com. Retrieved 14 December 2024. ALTERNATE NAMES: Ksatriya caste

[14] Kumar Suresh Singh (1996). Communities, Segments, Synonyms, Surnames and Titles. Anthropological Survey of India. p. 1706. Rajput synonyms: Chhatri, Kshatriya, Thakur

[15] Prathama Banerjee, ed. (2024). Textual Lives of Caste Across the Ages: Hierarchy, Humanity and Equality in Indian History. Bloomsbury Publishing. p. 186. In his descriptions of caste groups, Abu'l Fazal devotes more space to the kshatriyas and includes the Rajputs, allies of the Mughals, in this group.

[16] Barbara D. Metcalf, Thomas R. Metcalf (2002). A Concise History of India. Cambridge University Press. p. 25. Under the Mughals, the term Rajput had become the symbol of legitimate kshatriya rule,...

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