Talk:Ernst Röhm

This article is a good article. This means the community feels it is written well.

Translation

• This article still needs a lot of work - there is some very strange English in places. For example: "After the murder of Röhm the pursuit of homosexuals rose up." I have corrected a lot spelling mistakes. Some bits confuse me: he was the third son, but only an elder brother and sister are mentioned - do you mean third child? His father was a train director - is this a conductor (takes tickets) or a company director (runs a train company)?--Peterdownunder (talk) 11:04, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

"he was the third son, but only an elder brother and sister are mentioned": I mean chlid and corrected it. A train director is a person like a businessman. I changed it to "train chief inspector". That should be better. Barras (talk) 11:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I chenged "After the murder of Röhm the pursuit of homosexuals rose up." into "After the death of Röhm, more and more homosexuals got imprisoned". I hope that is easier to understand. Barras (talk) 11:20, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

It's getting better:) I'll do some more editing --Peterdownunder (talk) 11:33, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Bolivia / Night of the Long Knives

Can you put in more information about his time with the Bolivian military? Did he go to South America? This sounds interesting.--Peterdownunder (talk) 11:55, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

There are no information to this time. No documents. Nothing. Barras (talk) 12:01, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

That is a pity. The article is probably too short for a GA, so we need to make some sections bigger. I know you created the Night of the Long Knives page, but could we include some more of that into this page. The Rohm (no umlaut, sorry) page does not show how big the purge of the SA was. Peterdownunder (talk) 12:26, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Too short? No. The purge wasn't very big. "Only" around 90 people died. Barras (talk) 12:33, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Concerns

As requested at the PGA page, here is a list of my concerns as of right now:

• "He also was a member of the German Reichstag, and from 1933 to 1934 he was a Reichsminister." If "Reichminister" means "member of the Reichstag," isn't this redundant?
  • No it isn't redundant. ministers are members of the Reichstag, but not all members are ministers. Barras (talk) 18:52, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
    • That needs to be explained better in the Reichminister article then. All it says is that Reichministers were members of the Reichstag. Either way (talk) 18:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
      • I added it to Reichsminister. Barras (talk) 18:59, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
        • There's a balance between using borrowed words from other languages and words already available in English, especially when talking in a non-English context. English already has words like parliament, minister and ministy. Wouldn't it be better to call him a minister of the Reichstag, rather than a Reichminister? I'll try rephrasing this.--Leathp (talk) 20:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
• state who "Hitler" is in the lead. Don't just go by the last name with no link or title.
  •  Done Barras (talk) 18:59, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
• His death date says June 1, 1934, but the link for Night of the Long Knives says it took place June 30 to July 2.
  •  Done only a mistake --Barras (talk) 19:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
• Commas needed surrounding his father's name, and before his mother's name.
  •  Done Barras (talk) 19:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
• Can the "Early Life" section be expanded? It's too short compared to the rest of the article's sections.
  • There is no more well known. There aren't sources about this time. Barras (talk) 19:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Plus, this is GA so I'm not sure if there's a (current) criterion which means this section is too short? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
• In "Nazi party" section...Hitler is again mentioned with no context.
  •  Done Barras (talk) 19:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
• it should probably be explained what "get contact to" means. I assume he was some sort of go-between?
  •  Done rephrased and linked appropriately (I hope!) The Rambling Man (talk) 19:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
• "In 1921, Hitler started the Sturmabteilung (SA), attracting many men from the Friekorps." right now that looks like it has no connection to Rohm at all. Plus, it works weird just hanging out there as one sentence.
  •  Done Barras (talk) 20:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
• Three paragraphs in this section (of four) start with "In *year*" need some variety. (If the 3rd one is kept, it'll need a comma after the year).
  •  Done Tried to rephrase a little. See what you think? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:29, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Sorry, I was referring to the Involvement in the Nazi Party here. Three of the paragraphs in that section start with an "In..." (good clean up on the other section though). Either way (talk) 19:31, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
• "Rohm retired as leader of the SA" when did he become leader? That's never mentioned in that section...just one sentence prior he was forming an alternative group.
  •  Done Barras (talk) 20:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
• I'm confused about why the next section is "Leader of the Sturmabteilung" if he just resigned from being the leader of it. It makes it seem like his first time at the helm never happened.
  •  Done Barras (talk) 20:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
• "His follower Franz von Papen" should probably read "Franz von Papen, who was chancellor after Bruning"
  •  Done Barras (talk) 20:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
• "Because of the increasing power of the SA and therefore Hitler and the Schutzstaffel (SS) started a new dispute with Röhm." I'm confused by this sentence; it looks like a fragment to me.
  •  Done - I hope it's better now. Barras (talk) 11:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
• "more powerful in membership than the Reichswehr" What's the Reichswehr? It also needs to be italicized both times it's mentioned.
  •  Done Reichswehr linked, italicised and stub created. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
• Socialist and anticapitalist should have links.
  •  Done by TRM. Barras (talk) 20:05, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
• in the Night of the Long Knives section: who gave him the choice to be killed or commit suicide?
  •  Done Barras (talk) 19:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

*N.L.K. probably shouldn't be in italics.

• "...were made legal then next day when a law was passed with only one paragraph." I think the "then" should be "the." Who passed the law? Why was it only one paragraph?
  •  Done, but I don't know why it was only one paragraph. Barras (talk) 11:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
• "Röhm is well known for his homosexuality" source for that?
  •  Done Barras (talk) 11:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
• "He wrote three letters in Bolivia to a German doctor where he wrote about his homosexuality." two wrotes in there.
  • The cite shows only a section of a book and not all three letters. Barras (talk) 11:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
• "Since the mid-1920s he communicated with the gay community in Berlin and Munich." Needs to be reword. Since implies that he's still communicating with them.
  •  Done Barras (talk) 11:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
• "After the death of Röhm, many more homosexuals were imprisoned." what's the connection to him?
  •  Done - sentence removed. Barras (talk) 11:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
• That entire section needs references aside from just the one.
  •  Done I added two cites to "Involvement in the Army". Barras (talk) 11:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I think that's it for now. Either way (talk) 18:46, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Either way.. It's much, much, much easier to work on a list of problems than an ethereal "there are still some issues" so I'm sure I speak for Barras and me when I say thanks so much for taking the time out to provide this detailed review (much in the same way I've done in the past!). We'll work hard to resolve your concerns and then, hopefully, you'll be able to support the article against the GA criteria. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:23, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree with TRM. Barras (talk) 19:25, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

To clarify, could we reword as follows? "He died in 1934 during the Night of the Long Knives after Adolf Hitler had ordered his assassination." to "He died in 1934 during the Night of the Long Knives after his assassination was ordered by Adolf Hitler." This was the "his" is not ambiguous and is easier for a weak English person to understand. Granted, it's now in a passive voice, but I think it's still more clear. I'm open to other rearrangements, too. EhJJ^TALK 13:29, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

It is a wiki. Feel free to change it. Barras (talk) 13:32, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I figured I'd get consensus before changing the lead on an article undergoing GA evaluation. Anyway, I'll make the change if you haven't. EhJJ^TALK 13:45, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Two concerns in the Homosexuality section (perhaps someone who knows the subject better can fix). First: "Röhm is well known for his homosexuality." He is? I've never heard of Rohm's sexuality before, have you? Perhaps this could be clarified. The second is "Hitler did this, because..." Did what? EhJJ^TALK 13:51, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

1. yep, he is well known for this, because he was the onliest Nazi who was homosexual (well known at least in Germany). 2. Recording to the sentence Hitler reported that he heard of Röhm's homosexuality for the first time in 1934. Hitler did this, because homosexuality was against the ideology of the nazi party. That means Hitler would be a good nazi. Hitler and Röhm were friends and a nazi and a homosexual... no go in this time. I hope you understand what I mean. Regards, Barras (talk) 13:58, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'll make a change or two to perhaps clarify that. EhJJ^TALK 14:10, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

PVGA Review

I'm beginning the review and here are my first concerns:

Lead

• "(28 November 1887 in Munich – 1 July 1934 in Munich)" - We generally don't put birth and death places.
  • Hermann Wilhelm Göring (12 January 1893 in Rosenheim, Upper Bavaria, Bavaria, Germany – 15 October 1946 in Nuremberg, Middle Franconia, Bavaria, Germany) <- A VGA and TRM wasn't against it. I think it is helpful.
    • Ok. Pmlineditor^Talk 11:04, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
• "He also was a member of the German Reichstag where he was a minister from 1933 to 1934." - Comma before the subordinate clause?
  •  Done
• "It is known that he was homosexual. " - Really? Ref please.
  •  Done sentence changed and ref added. Barras (talk) 14:41, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Early life

• Heading not simple

• Which heading?

• "Early career" - Perhaps "Early life"? Pmlineditor^Talk 10:59, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

• Sorry. My error. Pmlineditor^Talk 11:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

• "He had one older brother and one older sister." - source?
  •  Done -Barras (talk) 11:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
• What was he doing between 1887 to 1906?

• What would you do in this age? Perhabs attending a school?

• Link "inspector"

•  Done

• No, not done. It's a redlink. Pmlineditor^Talk 10:59, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

• Not yet created on wikt, but done. Barras (talk) 11:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

• wikt: entry is created. Barras (talk) 11:37, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

• " In July 1919, the Freikorps became part of the 7th division." - what is this? and we need a source.
  • Only the Free corps of Göring became part of the 7th division, in generell it became part of the Reichswehr. Reformed and book ref added. Barras (talk) 14:53, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Involvement in the Nazi Party

• In 1919, Röhm joined the German Workers' Party (short: DAP). - umm, can is DAP the abbreviation of the German name? If so, can you provide the name? Also, link the party.
  • Linked and German name added. (Link will be blue soon.) Barras (talk) 14:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
  •  Done article already exists under different name. Barras (talk) 15:28, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• This was the precursor of the Nazi party. One year later he became a member of the German Nazi Party, receiving membership number 623 - very long and precursor is a red link at wikt
  • shortend, will create the link soon. Barras (talk) 14:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
  •  Done wikt entry created. Barras (talk) 15:28, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• " Two years later, Röhm and Hitler started the Sturmabteilung (SA), attracting many men from the Freikorps." - link Freikorps
  • Already link above. Barras (talk) 14:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• "Röhm took a part in the Beer Hall Putsch in 1923 when the Nazi Party tried to overthrow the government, but failed." - complex
  •  Done shortened. Barras (talk) 14:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• Link advisor
  •  Done Barras (talk) 14:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Night of the Long Knives

• "Röhm wanted to go to Bad Wiessee for a rest." - remove a
  •  Done Barras (talk) 15:02, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• Also, first three sentences needs refs
• "The next day the German parliament passed a law with only one paragraph making the murders at the Night of the Long Knives legal." - ref?

Homosexuality

• Delink homosexuality, already linked
  •  Done Barras (talk) 15:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• "Hitler knew of Röhm's homosexuality for many years but said he had heard it for the first time in 1934." - ref
  • Due to a fix in the lead, it is referenced there. Barras (talk) 15:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

That's all for now. Pmlineditor^Talk 12:43, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

First World War

• "In 1914, at the beginning of the First World War, he was an adjutant and fought on the Western Front." - ref?
  • Mentioned in the next ref. I don't add three time after each other the same ref, because it's useless. Barras (talk) 11:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
• Ref 5 is German - Either change it or at least change Language to German
  •  Done Barras (talk) 11:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
• "He was badly hurt in that year and lost a piece of his nasal bone." - ref?
  •  Done
• "He worked for the Bavarian government in the War Department for the first time two years later, and in 1918, he was given the rank of a captain (German:Hauptmann)." - too long

• shortened. Barras (talk) 11:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll do the rest later. Pmlineditor^Talk 10:50, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I think I've fixed all your concerns or even replied to them. Barras (talk) 11:23, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Few more:

• 90% refs are German. Can you please get more English refs?
  • If I counted right: 7 en sources, 9 de sources and 3 books (not 90% German) --Barras (talk) 12:38, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Whatever. Majority German. Pmlineditor^Talk 12:39, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  • I'll have a look for some English refs.
• Britannica ref requires registration
  • linked to normal Britannica - should work now.
• Refs need publisher info
  •  Done
• How is geocities.com reliable?
  • Is a book on the internet (e-book).
• How is network.ch reliable?
  • They tell us the sources they used (here)
• Or historyplace.com?
  • Known historican (published books and so on) published this website) (here).

Pmlineditor^Talk 11:56, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

All is done or replied to. Will look for some more English refs. Barras (talk) 12:23, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Going to be AFK, so I'll finish the review today night (~ 3.5 hours from now). Pmlineditor^Talk 12:27, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I really have no other issues. You can try and get someone else to review as well. I see this as a promising VGA. Pmlineditor^Talk 15:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)