Talk:Lawrence massacre

As of 9 November 2020, this article is a good article. (compare to current). This means the community feels it is written well. You may see the discussion that promoted the article here.

Simplicity/Readability scores

• The Flesch-Kincaid reading ease score is 70.3 - (70.0+ = Fairly easy to read)
• The Flesch-Kincaid grade level is 7.4th grade
• The Gunning Fog index is 8.7
• The Coleman-Liau index is 8 - this is the grade level
• The SMOG index is 7.1 - SMOG stands for Simple Measure of Gobbledygook, and gives a grade score
• The automated readability index is 7.2

While simple automated readability scores aren't the end-all be-all when determining how simple a page is, it's a good indication as to the general level of ease of readability. It shows that this article passes. ~Junedude433^talk 19:25, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

@Junedude433: What are the readability tests like now? --Yottie ^=talk= 18:13, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@Yottie:

• The Flesch-Kincaid reading ease score is 70.9 - (70.0+ = Fairly easy to read)
• The Flesch-Kincaid grade level is 6.7th grade
• The Gunning Fog index is 8
• The Coleman-Liau index is 8
• The SMOG index is 6.8
• The automated readability index is 6.3 (10-11 year olds; fifth and sixth graders)
• Overall readability consensus - Grade level: 7; Reading level: fairly easy to read; Reader's age: 11-13 yrs old (Sixth and Seventh graders)

(note: used this website and copied the main text of the article. I ignored the infobox, table of contents, the section and sub-section titles, and the references. I also deleted the artifacts of the references (i.e. [3], [9], [23] etc.))

So, it became ever so slightly more readable. ~Junedude433^talk 15:52, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Good to see the scores improved slightly. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:52, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Review

As promised, below is the review for the GA nomination (up to, but not including, the attack section):

•  Done The Confederates won the battle, as group of guerillas led by William Quantrill rode into town and shot every man they saw. - Split into two sentences (full stop after battle). Also, I assume you mean groups?
•  Done About 150 people were killed - To make active, maybe use they killed about 150 people.
•  Done targeted - Is this simple?
•  Done the city supported of abolition - Maybe supported abolition, I believe support is transitive.
•  Donefree-state - explain?
  • Added link. ~Junedude433^talk 20:34, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done in pro-slavery Missouri's western counties. - In the pro-slavery western counties of Missouri.
•  DoneBy 1863, there had been a lot of violence in Kansas. - Source?
•  Done guerilla war - Link?
•  Done target - see above.
  • Linked to the Simple Wiktionary entry. I couldn't think of a simpler word. ~Junedude433^talk 20:34, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done This is because Lawrence was the biggest anti-slavery city in the state and; it was also where the Union and Jayhawkers started attacks into Missouri. - Definitely make this two sentences.
•  Done it were very prepared; they reacted - replace semicolon with full stop.
•  Done and defenses were forgotten - try to make this into a sentence using the active voice.
• Revenge - Is this simple?
  • Yes, it is. It's on the combined wordlist. ~Junedude433^talk 20:34, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    Good spot! --Yottie ^=talk= 21:06, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done They had started a campaign in late March 1863 with the goal to end support from the people for the Confederate guerillas. - Split into two sentences.
•  Done described - Is this simple?
•  Done upset - Is this simple?
•  Donecivilians and politicians - Simple?
•  Donehistorian - Simple?
•  Done The historian Albert Castel says that revenge was the main reason. The Jayhawkers also wanted to steal, but revenge was their main reason - Repetition. No need to say it twice, merge into a single sentence is possible.
•  Done The feeling of revenge in the attack on Lawrence was confirmed by the survivors. - Use active voice.
•  Done Charles L. Robinson, the first Governor of Kansas and an eyewitness to the attack, also said the attack happened for revenge - I would split into two sentences. (CLR, the first Governor of Kansas was an eyewitness... He also said...
•  Done raid - I know it's in a quote, but could it be linked/explained?
•  Done outraged - Is this simple?
•  Done "as soon as war broke out - Is broke out simple? You may want to paraphrase instead. (started)
•  Done plunder - Is this simple?
•  Done destroy - Is this simple?
•  Done That was a reference - Maybe say he was talking about.
•  Done It was led by Senator James H. Lane. - use active voice.
•  Done Osceola was plundered, and nine men were given a drumhead court-martial trial and executed. - Ditto, if possible.
•  Done collapse - Is this simple?
•  Done raiders - Simple?
•  Done To try to stop the Missouri guerrilla raiders from being in Kansas, General Thomas Ewing, Jr. issued in April 1863 "General Order No. 10," which ordered anyone giving aid or comfort to Confederate guerrillas to be arrested. - Too long. Split into more than one sentence.
•  Done aid - Is this simple?
•  Done arrested - Simple?
•  Done considered - Simple?
  • The word itself is relatively [[Wiktionary:BNC_spoken_freq_01HWC|simple}], but not in this context. I simply deleted it. ~Junedude433^talk 20:34, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done 1425 Grand - I know what you mean, but is it clear?
•  Done In 1861, Bingham and his family were living in the building, but he and his family moved to Jefferson City when he was chosen to be the treasurer of Missouri in early 1862. - Split into two sentences.
•  Done treasurer - Is this simple?
•  Done story - In this context, is it simple?
• collapsed - Is this simple?
  • See previous fix. ~Junedude433^talk 20:34, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done The people who did not die from the collapse: - replace the colon with were
•  Done crippled - Is this simple?
  • Replaced with injury. ~Junedude433^talk 20:34, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done ball-and-chain - Is this simple?
•  Done jail - Is this simple?
• arrest - Simple?
  • See previous fix. ~Junedude433^talk 20:34, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done angered - Simple?
  • Changed to active voice to use angry. ~Junedude433^talk 20:34, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done Though Quantrill's raid on Lawrence was planned before the jail collapse, the deaths of the guerrillas' female relatives made the raiders want to kill people even more during the attack - Could you make this into two sentences?
  • Honestly though, it sounds much, much better as one sentence. ~Junedude433^talk 20:34, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    I'm quite happy with the change you made, I think it's fine as two sentences. Definitely easier to read. In terms of style, I don't disagree with you, but I think the compromise in this case is worth it. --Yottie ^=talk= 21:06, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I will look at the second part in due course. I hope this helps! --Yottie ^=talk= 18:02, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Review (2)

Here is the second part of the review:

• to tell the people there that an attack was coming - that there was (typo).
  • I don't see this as a typo. The phrases are "the people there" and "an attack was coming". Your way is still correct as well, but I don't see a typo. ~Junedude433^talk 20:52, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    My bad, I misread it in the first place! It's fine as is. --Yottie ^=talk= 21:10, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done came by Thompson - I think this needs simplifying. Came across? Met?
•  Done warn - Is this simple?
•  Done to warn of an attack, they were too late. - Full stop instead of a comma (make two sentences).
•  Done milking - is this simple?
•  Done when he was shot - Use active voice is possible. (when they shot him)
•  Done After they gained control of the building (which became Quantrill's headquarters during the raid), Quantrill's men went into smaller groups that spread throughout Lawrence. - split into two sentences.
  • Sounds a bit weird broken up in two sentences though. ~Junedude433^talk 20:52, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    I know what you mean, but I think it's simpler in this case. What I might suggest is to remove the brackets in the first sentence. --Yottie ^=talk= 21:10, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done All businesses except for two were burned - Use active voice (e.g. they burned all buildings except two)
•  Done looted - Is this simple?
• Everyone who was killed were men and boys. - I reckon there's a simpler and more elegant way to say this.
  • I tried. ~Junedude433^talk 20:52, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

     Done I think the issue comes from the use of the plural with everyone. Maybe All the victims were men and boys? (victim is on the BE1500)

•  Done unmustered - Simple?
• well - I would link, even though it is on the BE1500, as it is easy to confuse with the other meaning (i.e. good)
  • It was already linked. ~Junedude433^talk 20:52, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    Fine! --Yottie ^=talk= 21:10, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done rope - Is this simple?
•  Done convinced - Simple?
•  Done revolver - Simple?
•  Done chased - Simple?
•  Done basement - Is this simple?
•  Done He was found, and the guerillas chased him outside and shot him - Use active voice in first part of sentence.
•  Done His wife Mary used her body to cover him so he would be protected. - and protect him.
•  Done aim - Simple?
•  Done raised - Simple? (maybe lifted)
• He fired his gun so that she could see the bullet enter Carpenter's head. - This makes it sound like it was done specifically so that the wife could see him be shot. Fine if that is the case, although unsubstantiated. If you mean that she just saw it, amend to something like and she saw the bullet enter....
  • It was done specifically so the wife had to watch him die. It's a massacre - raiders typically aren't very empathetic. ~Junedude433^talk 20:52, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    In that case, that's fine. But is there a reference for it? --Yottie ^=talk= 21:10, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes. The two references at the end of the paragraph are the sources for all of the information in it. If you read through them, you'll see everything in there. ~Junedude433^talk 23:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done put out - Simple? (maybe stop)
•  Done handed - simple? (maybe gave)
•  Done German - Link
•  Done so it could be burned - So they could burn it.
•  Done yard - simple?
•  Done Reverend - link
•  Done entire - Simple? (maybe whole, although that's not BE1500 either... Maybe all the family?)
• {{{1}}}

{{{2}}} Because the raiders wanted revenge, they had a list of people they wanted to kill and buildings they wanted to burn - Rephrase. Something like The raiders wanted revenge, so they...

•  Done Lane was a military leader and a supporter of the Jayhawkers, a group of raiders that killed people and destroyed land in western Missouri early in the Civil War. - Too long. Is that second part of the sentence necessary?
•  Done escape - Is this simple?
•  Done cornfield - Simple?
•  Done nightshirt - Simple?
•  Done John Speer had been put into the newspaper business by Lane, was one of Lane's biggest political supporters, and was also on the list. Make into two or three sentences. Also, use active voice (Lane put Speer into...)
•  DoneCharles L. Robinson, first governor of Kansas and an abolitionist, may also have been on the list, although he was not killed. - Split into two sentences (maybe after abolitionist, or after list, up to you. Reword accordingly.)
•  Done Many have said Quantrill's decision to kill young boys along with adult men as a very bad part of the attack. - I reckon this has been changed from described...as... - needs a different verb. e.g. Many said that Quantrill's decision to kill young boys was a very bad part of the attack.
•  Done Bobbie Martin is generally said to be the youngest death - Complex construction. Reword, is possible. Also, change semicolon to a full stop.
•  Done histories - Simple?
  • Not sure if simply changing "histories" to "stories" feels right, since stories can be fiction. ~Junedude433^talk 23:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• done but others say he was fourteen years old. - I think you could probably make this a new sentence.
  •  Comment: I understand the need for basic sentences, but seeing as this is still the same part of the same idea, I think it should be kept not just for better flow, but also to better hold the idea together. If the whole point of simple English is to make it easy to understand, keeping the same ideas together instead of treating them as different ones I think does that. ~Junedude433^talk 23:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• his father's uniform; some say - Replace semicolon with full stop.
  •  Comment: I actually decided to make this a compound sentence for the same reason why I kept the previous one a compound sentence. The idea of this sentence is about what the boy was wearing. The two independent clauses are about the same idea, so they very much should stay together. Also, the references apply to both clauses. ~Junedude433^talk 23:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done was Riley Crawford; he was thirteen - Ditto.
•  Done after her husband was shot and her home burned by Union soldiers - Use active voice (after Union soldiers shot her husband and burned...)
•  Done after the attack; the first copy - Full stop.
•  Done he first copy was released on October 1, 1863 - Use active voice.
  • Not gonna lie, it sounds really awkward like this. It makes it sound like they just started (rather than restarted) and released the very first copy ever (not just after the attack). ~Junedude433^talk 23:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• aftermath - I know this is harsh, as it's a section title, but that's not really a simple word.
  • I don't disagree. However, considering what the topic of this article is, it would feel inappropriate to soften it. Writing "What happened after the attack" feels unnecessarily long and rather soft. "Aftermath" is commonly used in the context of disasters. Personally, I remember knowing the word when I was 8 years old, so maybe I'm biased. I linked it to the Simple Wiktionary entry. ~Junedude433^talk 23:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• bloodiest - Simple?
  •  Comment: I know the context here is slightly different, but "blood" is on the BE850 wordlist. If someone knows what blood is, using the basic conjugation of -est to mean "the most of" easily makes sense. "The event with the most blood" couldn't easily be misinterpreted as anything else. The closest reconstruction would be "the event that killed the most people," but that kind of ignores other events such as tornadoes. ~Junedude433^talk 23:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done He was believed to be a spy - Make active (they believed he was...)
•  Done He was believed to be a spy, and he was hanged in a barn on Massachusetts Street - Split into two sentences. Also, second part could be made active.
•  Done disbanded - Simple?
•  Done unified force - Simple?
•  Done Quantrill himself died - I think the himself part is redundant. Remove.
• By that point, he had only a few supporters left. - Is there a source for this?
•  Done several - Simple?
  • Not gonna lie, I would personally consider "several" to be simpler than "multiple". ~Junedude433^talk 23:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done These were built to help - They built these to help...
•  Done Bushwhacking a kind of guerrilla warfare - Missing a comma after the first word.

I hope this all helps. Another really interesting article, and quite frankly a good read. If all the issues are fixed, I wouldn't be averse to this going straight to VGA. --Yottie ^=talk= 11:17, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

@Yottie: Finished. How does it look? I also wouldn't inherently disagree with a VGA promotion (although I feel like it's a bit short, all things considered), I still need to have the Lawrence, Kansas article promoted first since I can only have one nomination at a time. (Also, honestly, the article for History of Kansas deserves VGA promotion over this one.) ~Junedude433^talk 23:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

@Junedude433: I'm happy with the changes. I will have another read through it, and will comment at WP:PGA. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:12, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Review (3)

Here are some notes from me. In general, I think the article is pretty good already as a GA candidate, and most are really intended for a future VGA review. Thus, they need not be addressed immediately unless otherwise noted. Original version of the article in quotes, I have already made edits to the live article in some places:

• Previously in the 2nd paragraph: "They attacked Lawrence because the city supported..." - because this sentence also marks the beginning of a new paragraph, the first word "They" now becomes unclear. I have changed that to read "The guerillas attacked Lawrence..."
• Background section - it seems a bit strange to talk about 1863, then move on to 1856 (sacking of the town), then move on to the beginning of the Civil War in 1861. Can this be re-arranged in chronological order?
• "John Brown might be the most famous person involved in the violence of the late 1850s that fought on the abolitionist or Jayhawker side." - is there any source that can support the assertion that he is the most famous?
  •  Comment: Hmm, I guess "famous" is a bit subjective. I'm not exactly sure what metric could be used to show this other than anecdotes. I see John Brown mentioned at least once is just about any media covering the lead-up to the Civil War, but I've never heard any of the other prominent figures mentioned at all. I could try to look into this. ~Junedude433^talk 15:17, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
• "The historian Albert Castel says that the Jayhawkers also wanted to steal, but revenge was their main reason." - the simplification effort has unfortunately butchered the meaning of this and flipped the truth of the statement around. I managed to get my hands on a copy of the cited book, and page 142 says (emphasis mine):

“

The bushwhackers raided Lawrence in quest of revenge and out of a desire for plunder... the former was probably the uppermost in the minds and emotions of most of them. Thus, during the massacre, they yelled, "Jennison!" "Osceola!" and "Butler!" as they rode about shooting...

”

• And one paragraph later in the book:

“

But if the bushwhackers' desire for vengeance explains the Lawrence Massacre, it does not excuse it.

”

• Castel probably meant to say that the bushwhacker force under Quantrill was motivated by the prospect of revenge for the Jayhawkers' attack on Missouri. This is a GA blocker, in my opinion, and will have to be addressed before promotion.

• •  Done I have specified that it was Quantrill's bushwhackers. I guess in my simplification efforts, I overlooked that it was the bushwhackers that were wanting to plunder, not necessarily just the Jayhawkers. ~Junedude433^talk 15:17, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

• "They plundered Osceola, and they gave nine men a drumhead court-martial trial and executed." - edited
• "This ordered anyone helping or comforting to Confederate guerrillas to be arrested" - corrected to "or comforting the Confederate guerrillas".
• "Quantrill's raid on Lawrence was planned before the jail collapse." - not an issue per se, but just wanted to note here that I have expanded the content there. It always feels great to have content that EN does not have.
• Placed explanatory note in its own section of the article.

Alright, I have spent an hour so far, and unfortunately have just finished up till the end of section 2. I will review the rest of the article another day. Chenzw  Talk  17:11, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Review: Attack and Aftermath

Again, most of the comments below are really meant for a VGA review.

• "A man from Hester named Henry Thompson" - while it might not need explanation in the article itself, Hester should be linked since it is not immediately clear to non-US folks what/where the place is, and its significance in the whole scheme of things. I assume that Hester was in the path of Quantrill's forces and Thompson happened to see them moving towards Lawrence. This is a GA blocker.
  • I was actually looking into that sentence for quite some time, since the EN Wikipedia did not have links to them, which would be rather unusual. I have been researching the person and the place, and the results have been lacking. The only result that continues to return when searched is the specific source that was provided for that paragraph, which was an article on the LJ-World from an author looking to novelize some of the events. I removed the direct quotes that were present in the EN Wiki article, since the source says that the quotes were not true, although I don't have much reason to believe the events are untrue. I have actually tried contacting the author of that article for more information. I'm hoping he can provide some greater insight (and more importantly, sources) for those subjects. I will update it when I get more information, or I will remove it if it cannot be found. ~Junedude433^talk 18:36, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
    • @Chenzw: I heard back from the author of the source. Sadly, he no longer had any of the reference material for which he used to write his books. Apparently, Hester was about 8 miles away from Eudora (although I don't know from which direction), but he couldn't say where it actually was. I couldn't find any places in Kansas that had the name Hester, so it leads me to believe it was probably a very small, unimportant, extinct place that was either abandoned or absorbed into another town. I couldn't find literally any source about this place other than the source already used. I was able to find just one possible source on the person Henry Thompson, so I know at least he existed. Please advise what should be done to correct this information. Should we delete the information about Hester but keep the information about Thompson? Should we just delete the entire paragraph? If not, what do you recommend it should be rephrased to? ~Junedude433^talk 15:11, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
      • @Junedude433: Great news! I was about to suggest that the entire paragraph be removed, however I went back to read the cited source 20 one more time, and it seems that there might have been a typo in the source, and the author actually meant Hesper, Kansas - Hesper is positioned nicely relative to both Eudora and Lawrence. From the source, under the section "Mrs. Jennings’s Story: The Kidnapping of a 13-Year-Old Boy", Mrs. Jennings was alarmed by the bushwhackers' efforts to locate Joseph Stone, and decided to ask William Guest to alert Lawrence. Source 20 then goes on to state that William Guest refused, and Guest's servant Henry Thompson thereafter decided to travel to Eudora on foot. Further reading of the source suggests that the "unknown man" who Thompson met is Frederick Pila. Another secondary source corroborates the general series of events (section "Efforts to alert Lawrence"). This other source appears to be an excerpt from a book written by Cindy Higgins. Alas, I am unable to obtain a copy of that book. Let me know what you think about the contents of these two sources. If they check out, this is also potential content that can be added to the article (the details of how the men sent from Eudora were unsuccessful in alerting Lawrence). Chenzw  Talk  13:19, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
        • Great find! The author of the first article sadly couldn't recollect much anymore, and in the email I received from him, he still called it "Hester," which I why I couldn't think of other alternatives (even more so since the "T" and "P" keys on a keyboard aren't close to each other). I went ahead and added the source, and I linked the town name to Hesper, Kansas. ~Junedude433^talk 14:57, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• "They gained control of the building (which became Quantrill's headquarters during the raid)" - since this is now a standalone sentence in our version (as compared to EN), the "which became..." clause could be taken out of the parentheses and added on with a comma: "...of the building, which became Quantrill's..."
• Something to look into for a future VGA nomination: I was reading the paragraph describing Reverend Hugh Dunn Fisher's survival, and the citations are all placed at the end of the paragraph. While the cited sources generally support the facts behind the Reverend's escape, text-source integrity should be maintained as far as possible. For example, sources 21 and 28 did not explicitly say that Elizabeth hid the Reverend under a dress (only a rug was mentioned), but source 27 mentioned the dress.
• "The raiders wanted revenge, so they had a list of people they wanted to kill and buildings they wanted to burn." - you might want to consider introducing this paragraph earlier in the section (maybe after "By 9 a.m., the raiders were leaving Lawrence."). Introducing the point about "buildings they wanted to burn" earlier in the section will be useful in describing Reverend Fisher's case because his house was "one of the marked houses and is bound to go" (page 204 of source 28).
• "Most of Quantrill's guerrilla fighters were teenagers." - it is not immediately clear how this is relevant to the criticism of Quantrill's decision to kill young boys.
• About the lynching of Thomas Corlew - is there any later source that tried to determine whether he was actually a spy? Even a source that says something to the effect of "even X years later, there has been no clear evidence that Corlew was indeed a spy" is useful too.
  •  Comment: While I see your point for including this to be more comprehensive, I didn't find any source mentioning this, and I personally don't think it's particularly relevant. What's relevant is that the people of Lawrence believed he was a spy for one reason or another. Why they believed it isn't entirely relevant. ~Junedude433^talk 15:17, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

--Chenzw  Talk  15:55, 15 August 2020 (UTC)