Talk:Brandon Marshall

Balance

I'm looking at the introduction on the English Wikipedia article. It doesn't mention anything about arrests, disorders or any secondary details unrelated to what he's notable for. It does describe it later, in a section dedicated to such information, where it belongs. Our article is tiny, and doesn't have the room for that kind of detail. And yes, it is a "side-issue" unless similarly brief descriptions in reliable sources commonly include it as well.

This is meant to be a sports biography. The issue has nothing to do with how "extreme" or "overwhelming" a disorder is. That's irrelevant to Wikipedia. We simply report the details that reliable sources do, proportionately to their appearance. Balance must be retained. Osiris (talk) 10:40, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Most Simple articles, including this one, don't have the format of lead and several sections, so it's not a good comparison. I didn't say it was in the lead of the en article. That article contains a lot of information about his BPD and its related effects on his life. There's plenty of room, WP isn't constrained by length in the way that paper encyclopedias are. Anyone is welcome to expand articles. A personality disorder is never a side-issue in a person's life - they dominate the lives of the people who have them. BPD must be the most distressing, confusing mental disorder that a person can have - the instability it causes is extreme and profound. Some reliable sources do state that he has BPD - I haven't measured their length. Very few people in the public eye have stated that they have a PD; Marshall is probably the highest profile person to do so. Publicly admitting a PD is rare and therefore very relevant to the bio of anyone who does so. Bios are a summary of a person's whole life, not just their career or what they're notable for. Not mentioning his BPD and related devastating effects on his life would be a major omission. I don't know where the belief among a small minority of editors that only what is relevant to a person's notability should be mentioned. Jim Michael (talk) 11:09, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Because they're short. It's five sentences. That's my point: quantity of text; I mentioned this at Talk:The Veronicas. A short description should mirror similarly short descriptions, such as the introduction of the English Wikipedia, or similarly brief biographies on reliable websites. Wikipedia isn't constrained by length, but BLPs are constrained by balance. The points that define balance need to be considered, to make sure that the details that appears on the page is "proportionate to their overall significance to the article topic". There is lots of information missing from the article, but it needs to stay focused on the important details – those deemed important by their prominence in reliable sources – until there is room for secondary details. It's not a small minority of editors: it's the policy. The content of a BLP must be balanced against the rest of the article. Osiris (talk) 11:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Everything you've added in the change conflict is irrelevant to policy. Osiris (talk) 11:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

I maintain that the article is unbalanced by omitting his BPD. He doesn't play football all the time, but he is a borderline all of the time. It's as relevant as Elton John's sexual orientation and Barack Obama's ethnicity. I'm likening it to sexuality and race, because it's constant and is relevant to their lives. In fact, a public figure admitting to having a PD is a bigger deal than coming out of the closet, because it's much less common, and is more stigmatised. Many entertainers clearly have PDs, mostly histrionic and narcissistic, but none of them have yet admitted it publicly.

Marshall was suspended and fined for being charged and arrested in connection to drink-driving and domestic violence. Therefore his BPD has had a detrimental affect on his career as well as his personal life. The people in Marshall's life will be more affected by his BPD than by the fact he plays pro football. He has chosen to prominently publicise his condition, and most of the long Personal life section of his en article is about his BPD and related legal problems. He has said that his adult life and pro career have been marred by his BPD. I can't see how it could be more relevant.

I can't expand Marshall's career details, because I know nothing about American football. If he hadn't publicly stated that he has BPD, I would still be unaware of his existence. Jim Michael (talk) 12:31, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

That's all your opinion, your own analysis. It isn't based on prominence in reliable sources, so it isn't relevant. I'm not going to go into analogies. It's surely important in a detailed article, but not in a description that is only six sentences long. The article is not about a person with BPD, it's about an American football player. A short description should stick to the most essential details to introducing the subject. You brought up the English Wikipedia's version of the article. It doesn't include his personal life in its introduction of the subject. Neither should ours. It belongs on a detailed biography, not on a short description. Consider this similarly brief description - [1] – it's actually a lot longer than ours, but it sticks to the facts that are most important for introducing this American football player in such a short space. Osiris (talk) 12:49, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

If you want to expand the article, the information is there on the English Wikipedia. You can just translate it into Simple English. Osiris (talk) 12:50, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

That article centres on his wealth, which for a bio of a sportsperson is trivia. Pro sportspeople are typically primarily motivated by their love of the sport as well as achievement through it and in many cases attaining popularity and admiration. Wealth is in most cases secondary to that, a bonus rather than the main goal. Such info should not be prominently mentioned unless it is a record salary for a person in that sport. Info on wealth would be appropriate to mention prominently on articles such as Bill Gates, Carlos Slim and Warren Buffett, who are known for their vast wealth. Marshall is a well-known borderline as well as a well-known football player, he has made sure of that. I can't simplify the info from the en article because I don't understand the terminology, nor do I know what is important to the career of such a person. Since you've drawn attention to his wealth, it demonstrates that his fortune and career success do nothing to restrain his behaviour, which at any time could result in severe injury, hospitalisation or imprisonment - ruining his life and career. That demonstrates the stranglehold that BPD has over its sufferers. They find it extremely difficult to restrain their impulsive, destructive behaviour or to make planned, good decisions in their lives. Marshall is a rare example of someone who is successful despite having BPD. Very few borderlines become notable, they are many times more likely to be living in poverty, in and out of hospital and/or prison. Jim Michael (talk) 16:00, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Right. I was more referring to the biographical description, beyond the details of his net worth that are surely obligatory for a website about celebrity net worths.. It gives a pretty good outline of his beginnings, college career, drafting into the NFL, and the milestones in his career thenceforth. My point is that it leaves out details about his personal life, and surely most similarly brief descriptions in other reliable sources do the same (certainly the NFL websites do). I understand that it's very inspiring and everything, but – and this is really just another example of an issue that is spread all over our stub-class biographies – the weight that the article gives it by mentioning it in such a brief summary, is disproportionate to its prominence in reliable sources and therefore disproportionate to the overall significance of the subject. Osiris (talk) 02:51, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

The NFL website is biased in wanting to promote itself and its players. It's obviously not going to mention the long list of reckless, destructive incidents that Marshall has been involved in, as they don't want negative publicity. Marshall has said that he wants to raise awareness and understanding of BPD. You could argue that he's an activist for BPD, as well as a sufferer. Look at the length of the BPD and Legal troubles sections of his en article. One sentence in this article about his BPD would not be disproportionate in comparison. Jim Michael (talk) 10:41, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

You're right, the NFL website is not a neutral source. So show me any reliable source that contains a description of a similar size to ours, and that includes details about his medical history. At your invitation, I looked at the at his article on the English Wikipedia. By word count, it dedicates 3% of the article to his medical history. And it's all in its own section down the bottom. Our article is 100 words long, which is half the size of the lead section on the English Wikipedia – which doesn't mention it at all – and we have no sections. So I strongly disagree with any mention of it, at this stage. Osiris (talk) 03:48, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

My opinion is that it would be extremely disproportionate, given that he is only notable for his NFL career. Osiris (talk) 03:48, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

It's a lot more than 3% of the en article. I'm including the lengthy section Legal troubles as well as the BPD section. That's because you object to including arrests, prosecutions etc. being mentioned and because he wouldn't have done those things if he were not seriously mentally ill. BPD is an extreme, long-term condition that dominates and devastates the lives of its sufferers and those around them. As far as I'm aware, he's the only person in the public eye who has stated publicly that he has a personality disorder. All of that makes it very relevant to his bio. Jim Michael (talk) 15:20, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Can you produce any evidence that reliable sources give the issue as much weight as you are suggesting? Osiris (talk) 15:45, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

• Of note to discussion: The English Wikipedia article is page protected with edits subject to review before being included. It seems to be related to BLP issues or vandalism. The article has been protected since December 2013. This suggest a persistent problem with negative activity. This is a large portion of our difficulty here on Simple. Who will safeguard an article that has opened the gate to including journalism with content in the style of tabloids? tabloid journalism?? Fylbecatulous talk 15:55, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

I didn't use any tabloid sources, nor did I write in tabloidish way. The source I used was an ABC News article. Jim Michael (talk) 10:53, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

I have said before that I do not always communicate in the clearest way. That said, I did state "an article", and what I meant was any article on Simple. I will strike part of my comment and clarify because I mean the addition of tabloid-type additions to an article (sensational). Tabloid content can come from reliable sources, of course, but we still have an obligation to not slant an article. The content that has been removed from this article but is still in history is tabloid content and sensational in this short article, no matter the source. Fylbecatulous talk 14:18, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Are you saying that the problem is the wording I used? If so, it should have been adjusted - not removed completely. Jim Michael (talk) 16:21, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

I am going to refer this back to the statements by Osiris on this talk page. Balance. This is a too short article. On my computer the opening paragraph is four lines. Then, yes, the wording in your arrests, BPD section is stark, with no mitigating factors. Please read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Marshall#Borderline_personality_disorder for comparison. Your wording sounds like the diagnosis caused the arrests, which is actually synthesis. This talk page will now be 13,000 bytes. We could have made this a good article in all this conversation. Please expand the article, as Osiris has suggested and then add a small section about his diagnosis, with his charity work and hopes of spreading awareness for positivity. I would still highly frown upon adding the list of arrests. Fylbecatulous talk 17:24, 8 March 2016 (UTC)