Talk:Jean Balukas

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PGA comments

lead

• She is one of most honored players in the history of billiards. - needs proofing.
  • By proofing do you mean sourcing? The rest of the paragraph states the facts behind that statement, i.e., that she was the five time player of the year, rated fifteenth on Billiard Digest's Fifty Greatest Players of the 20th Century and much more so those facts, all cited, verify the statement. However, I have removed the sentence entirely for one simple reason. Since it is shown by the facts in the paragraph, it's redundant; "show, don't tell" is one the great mantras of writing.
• At just 9 years old... - sounds a bit odd to me.
  • sounds odd to me as well. Fixed.

Young fame

• The first sentence: It looks like her father was homosexual (correct me if wrong). Please state this clearly.
  • Ha! Next you'll be telling me gay doesn't mean happy, and that "going commando" doesn't mean blowing stuff up. Fixed
• Balukas's - I think I learned that there shouldn't be the last s.
  • There is no right or wrong here. Some writers never use s's and some always do when it is a possessive words ending in ess where the ess should be pronounced. See w:Apostrophe#General principles for the possessive apostrophe. Please note that there is a quote in the article from the The New York Times (which can't be changed of course, even if the other instances were reformed) which starts: "Miss Balukas's triumph..."
• 4-1⁄2 by 9 - I'm not sure if there is a better way to format this.
  • I have replaced with "4½".
• It was made just for her in 1965 by the very famous cue stick maker. - Some concerns about the 'very'.
  • Unneeded so removed. Just so you know, George Balabushka is by an order of magnitude the most famous cue maker in history.
• At 5 and 6 years of age (saw this several times before): I think it sounds better to say: At the age of... - Anyway, please write the numbers fully.
  • I find the suggested construction awkward in some places. Take the one you've cited: it would become "at the ages of 5 and 6 years..." Another one "At just 9 years of age" would become "At the age of just 9 years..." which also seems awkward to my writer's ear. I have tweaked them in various places including using the style "X-years-old". I have spelled out all the numerical ages.

Until here: It looks good at all, but I still have the feeling that this article could be made simplier. I also think that there are (after dates, ages,...) some commas missing. I think it needs a look at it. I've made some minor changes. Barras (talk) 18:04, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

• I will do a further pass for comma usage later but I am not a lover of comma use solely as breath breaks. I don't know what else I can do to simplify without removing information content. Thanks for the review.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 00:22, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

U.S. Open Straight Pool Championship

• This sounds important and should probably be linked: U.S. Open Straight Pool Championship
• Dorothy Wise - Is she notable? If so please link it.
• Madelyn Whitlow - as above.
• Donna Ries - as above.
• Earlier in the tournament she badly beat Mieko Harada - is there a comma between tournament and she missing?
• Gail Breedlove - as the people above.
• Gloria Walker - as above.
• just talented at pool but - comma between pool and but missing?
• Althea Gibson,;skier Kiki - odd usage of symbols.
• her opponents' - if you use the other variant mentioned above, so please keep consitent.

Responding seriatim: per WP:PGA, the requirement is that there should be few to no red links in GAs. No comma belongs in the first. The second could take a comma but does not need one and stylistically reads better without. That's just a typo, fixed. S's is only used when you would pronounce the second ess, typically in proper nouns. It is therefore proper as Balukas's, and improper for opponents'. See e.g., [1].

The first is not because of a redlink, it just sounds important enough to be linked on the article as well as the mentioned people should probably be linked. If red links occurs, I'm willing to help to fill them if needed. --Barras (talk) 17:00, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Playing with men

• Willie Mosconi and Irving Crane - as the people above.
• she again played the legendary Willie Mosconi - why legendry? Never heard of it.
• She recalls - this happened in 1987, so use past tense.
• match aired on March 25, 1979 - first shown on; first broadcast both is easier.

• I'm not sure why you're referring to him as an "it", but Willie Mosconi is, if not the most famous professional player in history, then among the top five or so. Please see w:Willie Mosconi. Calling him legendary is no stretch. "She recalls" in the present tense at the time of the interview. It could be an interview from 1763 and it would still be present tense. Took your suggestion with regard to the last.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

sorry, the it refers to the word "legendary". Thanks for the info of using the right right tense. --Barras (talk) 17:00, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Break with the sport

• score 5 to 2 very quickly - the very is needed?

• I think it is. The emphasis is to show why Balukas got upset and snapped at Bell.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Please change all refs to {{Cite web}}, {{Cite book}} or {{Cite news}}. This is our standard we use on all articles. At all it is a really good work. --Barras (talk) 18:43, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

• I will if you clarify that the policy on simple is really different than at enwiki. Citation templates are to assist in formatting. What matters is what is seen; full, consistent attribution of source information so that readers can easily verify the content. Even featured articles are not required to use citation templates. Please see w:Wikipedia:Citing sources#Citation templates and tools. The same sentiment you've said here is frequently said to people at w:WP:FAC, and then the regulars tell them no, it's consistency of formatting, not consistency of coding, that matters.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 01:09, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

It will make all articles similar. Even if en does it on an other way, just have a look at the articles promoted to (V)GA in the last time/months. All use this any many people are in favour of them, so I suggest we use this way here as well. --Barras (talk) 13:43, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Comments

Major grammar/POV/copy-edit issues throughout the article, examples (not by any means comprehensive):

• She quit the sport during a time of controversy in 1988 while at the very height of her ability. Seems like POV

• Which part? "Time of controversy" or "height of her ability", or both? Gotanda (talk) 23:57, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

"Height of her ability", but the sentence overall should be rewritten. Albacore (talk · changes) 00:04, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Rewritten, it is the lead so we can summarise. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:06, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

• She had well over 100 professional competition first place finishes. Weasel phrase

• Not really, just removing "over" does the trick here, simple. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:04, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

• For the win she beat five time champion Dorothy Wise and took home a prize of $1,500. "Took home"?

• Done. Gotanda (talk) 23:57, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

• Balukas took a stand that the women should not be treated differently than the men. "Took a stand"? POV?

• Done. Gotanda (talk) 01:27, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

• Her first play was on a 4½ by 9 foot pool table in the basement of her childhood home. Do I need to know the dimensions of her pool table?

• Actually, it probably is important. Tables come in different sizes. Gotanda (talk) 23:57, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

• Check the references from 8 on down for {{cite}} formatting.

• Basically the article would be good with a thorough copy-edit. Contact me if you do so. Albacore (talk · changes) 22:31, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

• I went through line by line and made two batches of changes. The first was to link people, places, important terms, etc. For example, some TV shows linked, some not. Link all locations, towns, etc. This actually creates more problems, but was needed. I'll try to get to some of the red links, but it may take a while. Second, I went through and reworked many sentences and changed some non-simple vocabulary. This addressed some, but not all of your comments above. I do think this one is close enough that it can be saved from demotion with a little more effort. Thanks, Gotanda (talk) 23:57, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

• Yes, I'd like you (Albacore) to do a thorough copyedit as you offered. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:06, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Quick comment

• Looking at the references, there are two date styles in use eg. July 19 2011 and 2011-07-19. I do not think it matter which one is used, but they all need to be the same.--Peterdownunder (talk) 06:31, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

That's exactly why I didn't want to start the clock on a PGA this week. I'll get to those later. School term here ends next Thursday, so I have lots to do. Thanks, Gotanda (talk) 08:19, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I think it's easier to work without that pressure, some of us do have real lives too :) --Peterdownunder (talk) 12:02, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

• Another idea pointed out during the editing on Saturn, was the addition of alt tagging for all images. It is not one of the criteria, but I think it is a good idea (and we should probably add it to the criteria).--Peterdownunder (talk) 06:31, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree that alt text is a good idea. Something odd is happening. I looked at Saturn as an example, but it isn't one-to-one. The Saturn image has no caption. When I added the alt= syntax to Jean's image, the alt text did not appear, but the caption text shifted into the alt text position. To check, I tried a temporary edit and preview of Saturn. As Saturn is, the alt and caption text are the same, but editing the alt text of Saturn makes no difference. Alt just displays the caption text. Something odd or I'm missing something... Thanks, Gotanda (talk) 08:19, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Fixed it...more by chance than planning. I noticed the image was not a "thumb" or thumbnail copy of the file, but a reduced size copy of the file. I added "thumb" to the image tag, and the caption came back, and the alt text appears if you hover the mouse of the photo. I learn something every time I edit.--Peterdownunder (talk) 12:09, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

GA comments

All references look good, spare ref 7, whose title should not be in all-caps.

 Fixed

A few prose concerns:

In the "Break from the sport" section

In the game of nine ball, a person wins a game if they sink the 9 ball on the break Perhaps reword/link "sink the 9 ball on the break" for simplicity.

Split the sentence and simplified to, "In the game of nine ball, there is a way to win the game very quickly. The game is over and the first player wins if they put the 9 ball in a pocket when they take the first shot."

Thus, Bell made the score 5 to 2 very quickly, and did so in a way that avoided having to play with more skill than Balukas. POV? I'd suggest removing everything after the second comma.

But, it connects to later claim of winning by luck or skill, and therefore the unsportsmanlike conduct charge. Reworked to be more descriptive "Then, Bell then sank the 9 ball on the first shot two games in a row. That made the score 5 to 2 very quickly without having to play a complete game. Bell avoided having to match skill with Balukas on each turn." Neutral now?

"Just because she was our premier player doesn't mean she was above the rules",[8] said Vicki Paski in 1992, then president of the WPBA.[8] Not sure if the first [8] is needed.

 Fixed

"Her not playing is, I guess, sad",[8] but she also said that without Balukas playing, "we've all learned how to win". ditto

 Fixed

Other than that it meets the GA criteria. Best, Casey, (Albacore (talk · changes)) 13:48, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for giving this another check. Much appreciated, Gotanda (talk) 01:58, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

PGA review by Barras

Lead

• She has been described as a leader and" - I think this could be changed to something simplier like "[Some] people described her..."

 Done As suggested.

• Billiards Congress of America - Sounds important. Should be linked.

 Done Can't believe that wasn't linked. Probably dropped in a simplification edit. Gotanda (talk) 02:44, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

U.S. Open Straight Pool Champion

• Baluka's score was much higher than Harada's: 75-1 in 20 innings and with a 25-ball high run. - As someone completely not into this stuff, I need an explanation for this "25-ball high run". Either a link or some explaining sentence would be great.

 Done Changed to "longest turn" or "in a row" throughout.

Dress code controversy

• "Women's Professional Billiard Association" - This sounds like it warrants a link+article, doesn't it?

 Done Just a stub, but better than what was on En. Gotanda (talk) 02:44, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Break with the sport

• "Then, Bell then sank the 9 ball on the first shot two games in a row." - This sentence sounds weird.

 Done Yes, it was awkward. Also, I was never really happy with "Break with the sport". Finally realized "Leaving" is simpler.

• "sought" - Not really simple, it should be linked.

 Done Good catch. Re-written "had tried".

General stuff

• You should be consistent with the format. Either use ab to cd, ab-cd or ab–cd everywhere.

 Done Went with "75 to 19" format. Gotanda (talk) 02:44, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

• Linking things once is enough. Further links of innings should be removed

 Done

On a related note: "Her streak of wins ended after 1978 because the U.S. Open itself was canceled, not because she was beaten." would make a great hook for DYK.

Good idea. Thanks. I've never submitted one. Gotanda (talk) 02:44, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

At all it is a well written article! -Barras (talk) 19:39, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the helpful feedback. I think I've got all of those taken care of now. I hope the article can return to GA. Gotanda (talk) 01:04, 7 August 2011 (UTC)