Talk:Shinzo Abe

Edit response

@Jim Michael 2 First - Multi-stubbing does work it displays the first stub but puts it in what ever stubs are listed. All stubs templates go at the very bottom. As far as the categories, those got set by our admins and our cats also go in certain places. That is the way we prefer it. On simple our layout is different from other Wikipedias, to include enWP. So I’m asking you as good faith to please revert your own changes to how it was previously set. Thanks PDL^{Talk to me!}_{OMG, What have I done?} 15:58, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Multi-stubbing only shows one of them. In this case, the Asia stub didn't show & only the bio stub did. How can that be better?

Where does it say to put cats in the order they were in, and what reasoning is there for that? I've been here under my previous account, Jim Michael, for over a decade & for as long as I remember, it's been standard to put them in the order I did. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 16:05, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

@Jim Michael 2 First thank you for identifying your old account.

I looked through your talks on there and it appears you had received the same messages/warning multiple times about this, including by administrators, that told you back then the exact same thing I am saying here.

1. CATs do not go into alphabetical order and there is no need for it. They may and probably will change over time. So it is useless to do so.
2. We use multi-stub as I stated to keep the article clean putting multiple stubs on the page confuses readers. This is per Auntof6 in this conversation as we are working on the new format. They also always go at the bottom of the page so when an article is not longer a stub, we can find it very easily to remove it. This is not yet in place, however, it is the culmination of many people and is set to be our version of :EN:Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Layout#Order_of_article_elements just much simpler, changing things to meet the needs of Simple. You will also notice at the bottom of the last linked article, stubs is the last item on the page and we use multi, we do not use separate ones. As I stated it shows the first entry in it which the others also place it into the respective categories.

A lot of things change over time to meet the needs, and this is one of them. I hope this helps. PDL^{Talk to me!}_{OMG, What have I done?} 16:37, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Also to point out this change by the same admin (who also fixed something I made a mistake on) https://simple.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shinzo_Abe&action=edit&oldid=8339433 PDL^{Talk to me!}_{OMG, What have I done?} 16:39, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

I've just briefly looked though my old talk page & don't see any mention of multistubs on it. What's the point of them if only one shows? You might as well just put one stub tag, because the others are hidden unless you're on the edit screen. I only saw one mention of alphabetising cats, and there's no indication that it shouldn't be done. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:37, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

So I see Auntof6 just posted as I was typing out my response. I already mentioned it was something it was we were working on and it was nothing set and the page itself states such. Auntof6, I was not using you as an authority, however, you are an admin and what started this was putting a multi-stub if you see your diff and comments you made to the draft where you entered * Stub template: use {{tl|Multistub}} if more than one stub category is to be used. This is where the multi stub comes into place. It is also not aesthetically pleasing to see multiple "This short article about/of" all over the bottom of the page. When I look at the guidelines for enWP, it says two things

1. Up to 3, rarely 4 stubs may be used (but then it states)
2. Use the most lowest class stub you have (i.e. Biology, Asia) so if we had a Biology stub under Asia, we would use Biology-Asia-Stub (example). an article should be categorised under the most specific branch in the category tree possible, without duplication in parent categories above it (reference here)

As far as alphabetizing categories see, I remember back on WP people kept reporting me for doing that and kept getting me on the admins radar for that so I stopped doing it. As Auntof6 just said as well, they may change over time, so it may be futile to do so. I do remember at the time someone had pointed to an article stating "alphabetizing categories is highly discouraged." I can't find it now though. PDL^{Talk to me!}_{OMG, What have I done?} 19:13, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

How can readers click onto more than one type of stub when only one shows? You can't tell that an article is multi-stubbed unless you go to the edit screen, which most readers don't do. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:18, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

@Jim Michael 2: Maybe by using the categories instead of the link in the stub statement? I actually never noticed there was a link in the stub statement before now. -- Auntof6 (talk) 11:39, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

As it is, there's a link in the multistub only to bio stubs. Some readers will want a links to Japan stubs, which isn't there, but would be if that stub was present as well. That's the problem with multi-stubbing. On English WP, the stubs show as cats, but they don't on here. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 12:36, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

@Jim Michael 2: I'm not sure what you mean. This article is in categories for both people stubs and Japan stubs. -- Auntof6 (talk) 14:53, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, but only the bio stub shows onscreen, unless you're looking at the edit screen. At the bottom of the page you can click on the linik to bio stubs, but there's no link to Japan stubs. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 19:11, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Alphabetising cats makes it easier to find those that the reader is interested in, and to see which ones are present. It's easy to change cats whilst keeping them in that order. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:18, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

@PotsdamLamb: Please don't use me as an authority this way: that list I have been helping you with is not yet official. Even if it does become official, though, it will be at most a guideline. Also, I am not helping with that as an admin, just as another user who has seen the way we do things over a longer period.

As for the multistub issue, I don't think having multiple stub output on a page confuses readers. I remember when the multistub template was created: I don't remember exactly why it was created, but I don't think it was ever made mandatory. I do tend to combine stubs when I see more than one on a page, but that's not required. @Jim Michael 2: Even though only one stub type shows on the screen, the categories for all included types do get added to the page, so people can find stubs they want to work on.

As for alphabetizing categories, that is a common practice, although it is not required. I don't think it should be either required or forbidden. It used to be done a lot, which Jim remembers. Alphabetizing categories can help work with them for various reasons. The only issue I see with it is that alphabetizing a list of existing categories can make it harder to see if there was any change in the list, but once they're alphabetized it isn't a problem. -- Auntof6 (talk) 18:47, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

@PotsdamLamb and Jim Michael 2: Can we move this discussion somewhere more relevant? Very little of it is about Shinzo Abe. --Auntof6 (talk) 11:43, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

@Auntof6@Jim Michael 2 - I am not really participating in this conversation anymore, but I suggest maybe moving it Jim's TP. I can look and see if I can do anything about the multi-stub to show all stubs in it. However, I would recommend we limit it to two stubs in a multi-stub for sentence and grammar structure. Would you both agree to move this? PDL^{Talk to me!}_{OMG, What have I done?} 19:32, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

@PotsdamLamb: Please don't change the multistub template without a general discussion. It was created for a reason, and the way it works shouldn't be changed without everyone being able to give input. We don't know how many people might like it the way it is. After all, if they want to see all the stub output, they can just add separate individual stub templates. -- Auntof6 (talk) 19:57, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

I changed the multistub to 2 separate stubs so that they'd both show on the page, but that was reverted, which is what led to this discussion. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 20:25, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

@Jim Michael 2 It was also about alphabetizing the cats, both are resolved. I do not think we need to continue the discussion on this page. I believe it is now resolved. PDL^{Talk to me!}_{OMG, What have I done?} 20:28, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

@Auntof6 I never said I was going to change it, again you misread what I said. I said I can look into it and see if anything can be done. I posted on your TP about what I found. PDL^{Talk to me!}_{OMG, What have I done?} 20:00, 14 July 2022 (UTC)