Talk:Abraham Lincoln

Gettysburg Address

Something about the simplified version of the Gettysburg Address on this page does not sit well with me. Would anyone object if I replaced the simplified version with the real version and put explanations in brackets at appropriate places? Or as an alternative, would it be better to create a page for the Gettysburg Address and eliminate the section entirely replaced with a link and there put the text with explanation in brackets? Browne34 20:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

PGA Review by Barras

• He has been remembered as the "Great Emancipator" because he worked to end slavery in the United States - needs a ref.

•  Fixed

• His family was poor. - needs a ref.

•  Fixed

• log cabin - link or others words, because it's just not really simple.

•  Fixed

• Abraham Lincoln was sometimes called Abe Lincoln and nicknamed "Honest Abe" and the "Great Emancipator", because of his great efforts in 1863 to emancipate (or free) the African-Americans held as slaves by the Confederate States, even though he never actually freed the slaves that were still in the United States. - first: absolutely too long and needs a ref.

•  Fixed

• efforts - not really simple: link or reword.

•  Fixed

• rewarded - the same.

•  Fixed

• Illinois General Assembly - seems to be important, should be linked.

   Fixed Redlink, will create. Pmlineditor  Talk 11:24, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

• Soon, he became one of the most highly respected lawyers in Illinois. - needs a ref.

•  Fixed 2 refs added. Pmlineditor  Talk 11:28, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

• He was elected to one term in the House of Representatives, but when his term ended, he ignored his political career and turned his energies to being a successful railroad lawyer. - too long.

•  Fixed

• extension - should be linked.

• I don't see it, so it must have been replaced with another word. hmwithτ 17:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

• The Southern States did not support Lincoln, so seven States formed the Confederate States of America, which led to the American Civil War. - needs a ref. And which states count as southern states?

•  Fixed

• forced - not really simple.

• I don't see it, so it must have been replaced with another word. hmwithτ 17:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

• reuniting - not really simple.

•  Fixed hmwithτ 17:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

• But in 1863, he signed the Emancipation Proclamation, which freed slaves only in the Confederate states while allowing slavery to continue in the northern states of Delaware, Kentucky, and Missouri, as well as all captured southern territories at that time. - too long.

• I split the sentence into 2. How's it look now? hmwithτ 17:22, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

• The Proclamation was enacted, in part, to prevent foreign (namely Great Britain and France) powers from helping the Confederate States and ending the war, and possibly incite a slave revolt. - too long and why is Proclamation is capitalised and should be linked.

• I agree. I'm not sure the best way to split/shorten it and still have all of the information. Ideas? hmwithτ 17:22, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

• Slavery was not abolished by law until the 13th Amendment in 1865 - Even if the sentence is short, it seems to be complex.

•  Fixed

• Lincoln made a famous speech after the Battle of Gettysburg in 1863 called the Gettysburg Address. - needs a ref.
• The death sections is still too short for an own section.

•  Fixed

• Reference one don't mention, that Lincoln was 7 when he moved to this states.

That's all for now. --Barras || talk 18:26, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Looks like most of your complaints have been fixed Purplebackpack89 (talk) 18:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Presidency

Hello, have rewritten/extended the first paragraph of Presidency; can someone have a look, and perhaps add references, where necessary? - I am also not sure it can't be simplified...--Eptalon (talk) 14:18, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll help you a bit on that...I do think there may be a little too much info, and some of this is questionable historically. I also fixed most of Barras' suggestions. By the way, what's the common knowledge threshold? (Meaning what is so well-known and so undisputed, it doesn't have to be cited? For example, Obama's race, and the birth and death dates of most people). Because the Gettysburg Address is probably common knowledge. Purplebackpack89 (talk) 14:59, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

In theory, any citable sources can be added; on the other hand, this is for GA. In that context, I would think that his being chosen over other candidates (with more extreme views), or his being the first president elected because of the support of the Northern States would probably need a reference. Those refs can probably be found in the enwp article. Let's see what the others think. --Eptalon (talk) 15:07, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm confused...were you talking about the Gettysburg Address or the election in your first sentence?Purplebackpack89 (talk) 15:39, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I was giving examples from the sections/parts i changed earlier today. --Eptalon (talk) 15:42, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

I got your refs. Went old-school and got them from a book Purplebackpack89 (talk) 16:03, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

GA comments

• No need to link dates.

   Fixed

• Use an en-dash, not a hyphen when separating dates.

   Fixed

• "16th President of the United States between 1861 and 1865. " -split. "16th President of the United States. He served between 1861 and 1865 and was President during the American Civil War." (spell out the fact it was the American Civil War please).

   Fixed

• "killed him" - I think assassinated would be better with a link.

   Fixed

• "as a religious Baptist," - "because he was a ..."

   Fixed

• You've linked read, write but not math. Why not?

   Fixed

• Reorder [6][1] numerically and put them after the full stop.

   Fixed

• Infobox - date range needs en-dash, and link Kentucky first time, not second, and be consistent with commas with those Kentuckys.

   Fixed

• Is debate simple?

   Fixed

• "Western states"- why is western in italics here? Does it mean something important? If so, link it to an article.

   Fixed

• And free labor doesn't need to be in italics, and it could use a link, even if it's red.

   Fixed

• "16th president" - President.

   Fixed

• Can you reference that quote from Lincoln?
• "South was going to lose." lose what?

   Fixed

• Ref 12 needs an en-dash, not a hyphen in the page range.

   Fixed

• 9 "other websites" is over the top. Ensure that websites you pick are reliable, and cut them down to those which provide different information.

   Fixed

The Rambling Man (talk) 16:57, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

1. You're suggesting several words, such as assassinated, that are too big, and killed works fine for a second grader

   No, not too big if they are linked. And you use assassination later on anyway. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

2. Civil War links to American Civil War anyway.

   But in the introduction you should expand upon things so you attract all readers not just US ones. I would still expand it. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

3. Considering how many books and other writings there are on Lincoln, nine websites is perfectly fine

   Not if they're unreliable sources and repeat information from one to another. At the very least you could explain what the sites provide, and get rid of those CAPITAL LETTERS! The Rambling Man (talk) 17:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

4. In all, I think you're being too much of a nit-pick. After all, this is GA, not VGA

   Indeed I am being a "nit-pick". After all, I don't want sub-standard articles getting needlessly promoted. Nit-picking is my job here. Cheers! And don't forget to sign your posts!! The Rambling Man (talk) 17:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

    Fixed Everything. @Purplebackpack89: Stop complaining and do some article work. Pmlineditor  Talk 17:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

That's a low blow, PMLin and Rambler. I have done lots of work on this article, although not enough for you to call all the edits "mine". I thought after Barras' review, it was pretty good, but apparently not. The whole dash thing I don't get. Purplebackpack89 (talk) 17:39, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

No "low blow", this is all about getting a good quality article up to scratch. – (en-dash) should be used to separate dates, page ranges etc, not - (hyphen). The Rambling Man (talk) 17:41, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

More

• Why is United States linked on its third (or so) appearance?

 Fixed

• One assassination links to wikt, the other to murder. Be consistent.

 Fixed

• Why are we linking to en.wiki articles here? log cabin?!

 Fixed red-linked pending creation of article by moi

• Be consistent with commas in the infobox before Kentucky each time.

 Fixed

• math still not linked - I think you should use "mathematics" anyway, as "math" is totally inherently US-speak while mathematics is precise.

 Fixed--links to mathemathics. Back then, the term most likely used was "arithmetic"

• Is "runaway" part of BE850 or BE1500?

 Fixed to "escaped"

• Quote still not attributed.

 Fixed

• 13th amendment overlinked.

 Fixed

• DC or D.C.?

Either are acceptable (one postal, one traditional), but all now D.C.  Fixed

• Ref 12, remove spare space before the dash.

 Fixed The Rambling Man (talk) 18:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Ways to expand

• Lead is too short, expand it (take ideas from enwp)
• In the "Life" section, we get very little information
  • When Abraham was seven years old, his family moved to Indiana and later to Illinois.[3] In his childhood he helped his father on the farm, but when he was 22 years old he left his parents and moved to New Salem, in Illinois, to work as a salesman. - What happened in these 15 years?
• He lived for 56 years, we need more details about his later life
• What was Lincoln doing between 1846 and 1860?
• I see nothing about the Emancipation Proclamation, nor about the Civil War
• Lincoln made a famous speech after the Battle of Gettysburg in 1863 called the Gettysburg Address. - Can we have something more?
• One sentence about assassination is not enough.

Expand these and then I'll review the article. Pmlineditor  Talk 07:37, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

NPOV concern

I had removed the following good faith edit as I feel that it introduces a POV. It was immediately re inserted. So as not to cause an edit war, I will not immediately re-remove it and will instead post it here just so we can get a community consensus on whether it constitutes a POV:

"Abraham Lincoln is considered to be one of the greatest US president in history because of his effort in leading his country through its greatest internal crisis, the American Civil War, preserving the Union and ending slavery." Kansan (talk) 13:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Lincoln predictions

As I wrote on 21:39, 13 June 2013, ‎ it is widely believed that Lincoln might have known of his assassination before he died. According to Ward Hill Lamon, Lincoln's friend and biographer, three days before his assassination Lincoln discussed with Lamon and others a dream he had, saying:

"About ten days ago, I retired very late. I had been up waiting for important dispatches from the front. I could not have been long in bed when I fell into a slumber, for I was weary. I soon began to dream. There seemed to be a death-like stillness about me. Then I heard subdued sobs, as if a number of people were weeping. I thought I left my bed and wandered downstairs. There the silence was broken by the same pitiful sobbing, but the mourners were invisible. I went from room to room; no living person was in sight, but the same mournful sounds of distress met me as I passed along. I saw light in all the rooms; every object was familiar to me; but where were all the people who were grieving as if their hearts would break? I was puzzled and alarmed. What could be the meaning of all this? Determined to find the cause of a state of things so mysterious and so shocking, I kept on until I arrived at the East Room, which I entered. There I met with a sickening surprise. Before me was a catafalque, on which rested a corpse wrapped in funeral vestments. Around it were stationed soldiers who were acting as guards; and there was a throng of people, gazing mournfully upon the corpse, whose face was covered, others weeping pitifully. 'Who is dead in the White House?' I demanded of one of the soldiers, 'The President,' was his answer; 'he was killed by an assassin.' Then came a loud burst of grief from the crowd, which woke me from my dream. I slept no more that night; and although it was only a dream, I have been strangely annoyed by it ever since."

Lincoln of course laughed it off but one wonders what Lincoln thought? I am sure he had long since taken a fatalistic attitude as to his office and his life. He know there were many who wanted to kill him and given the chance they would. Col. Crook who worked detail at the White House when Lincoln went to Fords Theater for the last time said something that got Crooks attention...Every evening he would say to Crook as he left or retired "goodnight Crook" ...On the night of April 14, 1865...He walked out to Crook and said "Goodbye, Crook". It really got Crooks attention Lincoln had never said that before. But it was just chance...Who knew, most of all Lincoln.

So, why is not allowed on here, I know it is silly to think that dreams can predict the future but it is on the Lincoln assassination on Wikipedia on English, so why not here? 15:30, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Hay quotation

According to John Hay, at the moment of Lincoln's death, "A look of unspeakable peace came over his worn features."

I know that this has been reverted several times, now, but should it come back: This is not simple, and it really doesn't belong here. Maybe in the assassination article, and if a secondary source is given (not a link to a Google search). It needs to be rewritten in simple English first. Osiris (talk) 00:46, 19 February 2014 (UTC)