Talk:Kōji Nakata

Move page (Kōji Nakata→Koji Nakata)

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not change it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No more changes should be made to this discussion.

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According to official site

• Japan Football Association Official site
• J.League Official site (#6)
• Kashima Antlers Official site

--Japan Football (talk) 14:48, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Websites often remove diacritics from names. However that is often a mistake. They are often needed for english speakers to properly pronounce a name. -DJSasso (talk) 14:52, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Please notice that some English websites do use the macron, including

• Guardian.co.uk, Stats Centre: Kōji Nakata Facts
• National Football Teams, Nakata, Kōji

In the context of this thread, could this be helpful? --Horeki (talk) 19:43, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Yup that definitely helps. -DJSasso (talk) 20:01, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support because websites listed by Japan Football are persuasive. The use of the macron in romaji is somewhat variable, not stable. --Horeki (talk) 13:18, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

• Use the macron: the sources in English are more persuasive to me. Romanization often changes, or maybe more accurately, people don't follow the style well. Romanization is for non-Japanese readers, so sources like the Guardian may tend to pay more attention. My experience is that romanization in Japanese publications, websites, etc. is often inconsistent because when sites are bilingual the Japanese readers do not need or read the romanized names. Gotanda (talk) 21:55, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

• Exactly the macron is for non-Japanese readers. -DJSasso (talk) 11:43, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: When Japanese people write the Japanese name including long vowel, most Japanese people don't use the macron. If they want to write a long vowel by any means, for example, they like "oh" better than "ō". For example,
  • en:Shinobu Ohno (not Ōno, women's footballers) FIFA, JFA FW #11
  • en:Sadaharu Oh (not Ō, baseballer)
  • en:Kenji Johjima (not Jōjima, baseballer)

When Japanese people write the Japanese name including long vowel, Japanese people usually use "o" and "u", sometimes use "oh". So, I want you to move page. --Japan Football (talk) 09:38, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Japan Football, the macron is not used in Japan, but is often used in English and other languages. Whether it is Oh, Ō, or Ou is exactly the problem. Japanese people and publications do not do it the same way every time. But, may main point is that these articles should be written in Simple English. Simple English is not Japanese Romaji. Romaji is Japanese writing using the alphabet. The letters are the same, but languages are rules are different. Gotanda (talk) 21:33, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Romaji

Please see Talk:Ryōta Tsuzuki#Move page (Ryōta Tsuzuki→Ryota Tsuzuki) --Horeki (talk) 20:07, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Gotanda and DJSasso, your arguments do not hit the center of the target. You have framed a general defense of the macron across all articles.

Please re-focus your thinking. This proposed move is about one article only --simple:Kōji Nakata.

Our project's overall support for the macron is not disputed. As a general rule, we do support the use macrons in our project, but I do not see how the macron is a good thing in this one article about a living person.

The underlying policy of all Wikipedias is to "follow" the decision-making of reliable sources.

JapanFootball has provided several reliable sources which support this change. For me, it is enough. If a consensus among reliable sources verified the use of a macron in the name of this Japanese athlete, that would be different. Further research informs my support for the proposed move. The justification for the use of a macron is not found in these sources:

• France/FootballDatabase.eu -- no macron in Koji Nakata
• Germany/Transfermakt.co.uk -- no macron in Koji Nakata
• Germany/Worldfootball.net -- no macron in Koji Nakata
• Netherlands/Soccerway -- no macron in Koji Nakata
• Switzerland/FIFA.com -- no macron in Koji Nakata
• UK/Telegraph.co.uk -- no macron in Koji Nakata
• US/NYTimes.com -- no macron in Koji Nakata
• US/Soccernet.espn.go.com -- no macron in Koji Nakata

There are at least two cited source which use a macron. NationalFootballTeams.com is a German sports website and the Guardian is an British newspaper.

1. Germany/NationalFootballTeams.com -- Nakata, Kōji
2. UK/Guardian.co.uk -- Kōji Nakata

Why are these two sources considered more persuasive than the other cited sources? --Horeki (talk) 17:17, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't believe it is the number of sources, but the quality. I tend to view The Guardian as a high quality source. The Telegraph and the New York Times are also high quality sources. The Japan Times is not as high quality a source (for example, they often choose not to print corrections.) I would view websites from countries where English is not the primary language such as France or Germany as less authoritative that sites from the UK for example. Gotanda (talk) 21:33, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Living person

The use of a diacritic in the title of this article about a living person requires us to be careful and thoughtful.

Our decision-making must be based on specifics, not generalities. In addition to the sources cited above, please consider these Japanese newspapers:

• Japan/JapanTimes.co -- no macron in Koji Nakata
• Japan/Yomiuri.co.jp -- no macron in Koji Nakata

Why is any source considered more persuasive than the Japan Times and the Daily Yomiuri?

Also, please note that Nakata played for Olympique de Marseille in France -- compare France/OMPlanete.com -- no macron in Koji Nakata (in French).

Perhaps it is helpful to consider en:Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles (en:WP:MOS-JA):

Names of modern figures

For a modern figure—a person born after the beginning of the Meiji period (January 1, 1868 onward for our purposes)—always use the Western order of given name + family name in Latin script, and Japanese style family name+<space>+given name in Japanese script. For example:

Junichiro Koizumi (小泉 純一郎 Koizumi Jun'ichirō, born January 8, 1942) is a Japanese politician …

Spelling, including macron usage, of the name of a modern figure should adhere to the following, in order of preference:

1. Use the form personally or professionally used by the person, if available in the English/Latin alphabet;
2. Use the form found in an encyclopedia entry from a generally accepted English encyclopedia;
3. Use the form publicly used on behalf of the person in the English-speaking world;
4. Use the form publicly used on behalf of the person in any other popular Latin-alphabet-using language (French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, German, and Dutch, or variations); or
5. If none of the above is available, use the macronned form.

IMO, the name of this article should not have a macron. If I have misunderstood something important, an explanation will help me to avoid making a similar mistake in the future. --Horeki (talk) 17:17, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Macron is the default, unless one of the earlier criteria is better. Number 3 is often, though not always, true. So, we have a weak number 3 and the default. Gotanda (talk) 21:33, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

We have three explicit #1-cites with hyperlinks to three stand-alone and complementary sources.

This thread begins with JapanFootball's diff here.

1. Three "official" sources are identified and each provides the "spelling, including macron usage, of the name of a modern figure".
2. In the very clear terms of the boxed list of preferences above, each "official" source "use[s] the form ... professionally used by" Koji Nakata.

In sum, each source cited by JapanFootball is the 1st preference, the best choice. At this point, further delay is unreasonable in my opinion. --Horeki (talk) 12:34, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

No consensus to move. Discussion seems to have dissipated, with no consensus. Osiris (talk) 02:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not change it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No more changes should be made to this discussion.