Talk:Lawrence, Kansas

As of 13 August 2020, this article is a very good article. (compare to current). This means the community feels this article is written very well. You may see the vote that promoted the article here.

Suggestions Re GA nomination

These passages use "people" and "first people" without considering that native Americans were already living there.

• Before people came to Lawrence, the area was part of the Shawnee Reservation.
• People believed that the first people in Kansas would be from Missouri.

Not sure how to replace people there. White people is mainly true but ignores others. "Settlers from the east," "new residents"?

The only mention of Native Americans starts with 1830. "Before people came to Lawrence, the area was part of the Shawnee Reservation.[12][13] The Shawnee reservation was created in 1830." I think it will help the article if there is some more information about early settlement. The Shawnee Reservation link does not describe the reservation but links to the barest of stubs about Shawnee people.

--Gotanda (talk) 22:57, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

I tried to rephrase the word "people" a little bit, but you're right, it is a hard one to rephrase. What about using the word "Americans" as the people were settlers from the United States? As for the Shawnee reservation, the only things I would have to say about that are that 1) The standard English article also doesn't have much information on the reservation on the Lawrence article; 2) The reservation has far more to do with the general history of Kansas rather than the history of Lawrence specifically (and it's why the standard English Lawrence article has a link to the page "History of Kansas"); and 3) The Shawnee people really didn't spend much time in the area to begin with. They were relocated from Ohio (and a few other places before that) in 1825, and they were basically removed within a pretty short amount of time. For all intents and purposes, the beginning of Lawrence's history (that can be easily discernible) is basically just slightly before the area became the Kansas Territory.

I can attempt to add more info about the Shawnee people in their appropriate article, and I can try to make a History of Kansas article, but there isn't much information about the Shawnee people that's relevant enough to Lawrence's (specifically) history.

I still greatly appreciate the feedback! ~Junedude433^talk 19:31, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Primary and Secondary Schools Listing

I noticed that someone had changed the list of all of the schools in the section to be that of a bulleted list. While it makes it look neater and a bit easier to read, I feel like it ruins the formatting of the page. It adds a lot of empty vertical space, and there's nothing to fill it with. I would like to change it back, or at least modify it so there's less space used. If this will likely be a Good Article, then it should also look good too. What does everyone else think? ~Junedude433^talk 15:36, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Thoughts to make it better

1. There are some error messages in the references to do with italics. These would need to be fixed. 2. Clumsy sentences. There are a few sentences that appear to me to be awkward, perhaps they could be simplified to make the meaning clearer or simpler:

• Early history: "The Shawnee reservation was created in 1830. It was in most of eastern Kansas." - would "included" be better or the reverse - "most of East Kansas was in the reservation"?  Done
• "People believed that the first people in Kansas would be from Missouri" - just to be politically correct here, it should be first new settlers, as the first people would be the Native American people  Done
• "Then they would decide a good place to send people." To me, this does not seem like a complete sentence.  Done
• "They saw Hogback Ridge, and they liked it. They liked it because it was close to the Oregon Trail." Should be one sentence, eg "They saw Hogback Ridge and they liked it because..."  Done
• "In late July, the group came to St. Louis. They met Charles Robinson there." Would be better as one sentence  Done
• "After they were done eating, half of them left to claim the land around them. The other half stayed on Hogback Ridge. They started building a city between Mount Oread and the Kansas River (close to where Massachusetts Street is)." Couple of things - "done eating"?? "Eaten" would be better. It also reads like they started building the city staright after lunch.
  • "Eaten" would not be better. "After they were eaten" would be wrong. Maybe "after they had eaten" could work. Also, for the most part, they really did start building the city right after lunch. They weren't building houses or anything, just making tents and whatnot, but it was the start of construction on the city. ~Junedude433^talk 02:26, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I did mean something like "...after they had eaten..."Peterdownunder (talk) 03:07, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

With regard to what happened after lunch, spell it out like you have above, eg., "...they began putting up their tents; this was the start of the city of Lawrence." Peterdownunder (talk) 03:07, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

• "However, many of them "became disgusted" by the settlement,.." Why?
  • I didn't really know how to phrase it simply. They were disgusted because the settlement was disgusting. It was a sad collection of tents and makeshift farms. It wasn't exactly a good-looking area. If you were from the large city of Boston, then moved to a place which was just a bunch of poorly constructed tents in the middle of nowhere, you would probably be disgusted too. ~Junedude433^talk 02:26, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I think your sentence above would work nicely eg, "They were disgusted because the city was only poorly constructed tents and makeshift farms". Peterdownunder (talk) 03:07, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

• "Lawrence made this constitution even though..." It was the people that wrote the constitution.  Done
• "Ferril was an anti-slavery clergy from Missouri." Is clergy the right word? To me it is plural.  Done
• "...people from building the tent again, but the tent was built again without violence.." Do you build a tent?  Done
• "Some people wanted the city to be called "Lawrence" because of a man named Amos Adams Lawrence." Not sure about "because of", would honor, or recognise, or ??  Done
• "On October 1, the people voted to make the name of the city be Lawrence." Simpler to say "...voted to name the city Lawrence."  Done
• "...man named "Keebs" with a Bowie knife. Then Kibbee shot Davis." Are "Keebs" and "Kibbee" the same person? Not clear.
  •  Done The standard English Wikipedia didn't have the specific information at the time I wrote this, but someone found mroe sources with better information! ~Junedude433^talk 02:26, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Good work, I like it when our information is better (and clearer than enwiki).Peterdownunder (talk) 03:07, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I will look at the next section later.Peterdownunder (talk) 22:45, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

@Junedude433: These are great suggestions. Do you want to work on them since you have done so much for this page? Or would you object if I try to address some? Desertborn (talk) 10:37, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

@Desertborn: I am perfectly fine with anybody editing the page. I thought one of the requirements was for more than just one person to do the editing anyway. I'll try to work on these suggestions as well though. I'm just glad someone took the time to look at it in-depth! ~Junedude433^talk 01:48, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Bleeding Kansas

• "In June 1855, Lawrence had a meeting. They decided to resist any laws the Kansas legislature passed." Better as one sentence, and maybe say ...the people of Lawrence  Done
• "They did this because they believed the legislature was elected by armed Missouri people instead of Kansas people." Remove the words I have put in italics makes it more direct.  Done
• "Jones decided to arrest Jacob Branson, a friend of Charles Dow..." I need an explanation here - Coleman shoots Dow, but Sheriff Jones arrests Branson - why?
  • Tried to explain it. I think I had left it there because I needed to use the phrase "disturbing the peace," and I didn't really know how to simplify that specific legal term. I just slapped a wiktionary link on there. Also, Jones not a very nice nor impartial Sheriff. Half the things he did was just because he hated anti-slavery people. ~Junedude433^talk 02:26, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I will add some more tomorrow. Do not get discouraged, but remember our VGA rated pages have to be the very best, and that is hard work. Each time I have spent time getting one up to standard I have promised myself never to do it again! Usually the problem is getting the language into Simple English is the hardest part, but this article has achieved that successfully. I am reading it as a non-American, who had never heard of Lawrence until I read the article, and I do not have much knowledge of American history. Have learnt quite a bit already. And there is no hurry, VGA takes time. Peterdownunder (talk) 12:20, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Not discouraged in the slightest! To me, the hardest part was simply getting other users to even look at the page, let alone edit it or make suggestions! I welcome any criticism! ~Junedude433^talk 01:48, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I will look at some this afternoon, but I think we will have a good article at the end.Peterdownunder (talk) 03:07, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

More comments

• "Donaldson, Jones, and others made an army of 800 men...On May 21, Donaldson and Jones came to Lawrence with a group of men." Not sure about "made" for an army, but I can not think of a better word at the moment. Was the army in the first sentence the same as the group in the other sentence? If it is, then perhaps the sentence would be better with came to Lawrence with their army.Peterdownunder (talk) 05:55, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
  • As far as I know, it's a different group (although it probably had many of the same members). Perhaps "formed" or "created" would be a good choice? ~Junedude433^talk 01:36, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
•  Done "They took over Charles Robinson's house. They used it as a headquarters." Make one sentence. I know short sentences make the article simpler, but often too many short sentences can make it stilted and difficult to read. An easy to read article does have a mix of short, medium, and long sentences.Peterdownunder (talk) 05:55, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
•  Done "Next, they attacked free-state newspapers offices. They hit the presses, and..." Get rid of the "nexts" in this paragraph, they are unnecessary as the timeline is implied by the order in which you have written the paragraph. I am sure there should be an apostrophe for newspapers' offices. They "hit" the presses? I know what you mean but I think there would be better verbs than hit, also use the full term printing presses, still link it, but make the meaning really clear. I was going to comment on "sort", but you have linked it properly, even though it is not a word I was familiar with in printing. I learned something new! Peterdownunder (talk) 05:55, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
•  Done "...with a cannon, then they burned it..." There are two "they"s in the short sentence, maybe "with a cannon, and then burned it..." would read better.Peterdownunder (talk) 05:55, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
• "...They took $30,000 worth of things. They burned Charles Robinson's house, then they left." First "things" is vague, be specific and mention two or three things they took. Again, too many "they"s. Could change it to "After burning burning Charles Robinson's house "they" (give the name here, whatever it was eg Donaldson and Jones' army) left.Peterdownunder (talk) 05:55, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
  • The original sources did not mention specifics. It said that they stole $30,000 worth of "valuables," but it didn't say what was stolen. We can only speculate (e.g. jewelry, money, etc.), but nothing definitive. ~Junedude433^talk 01:36, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
•  Done "This was called the "Sacking of Lawrence."" Instead of "this" give a description such as "The destruction, burning and looting is called..."Peterdownunder (talk) 05:55, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
•  Done "In late September 1856, another sack seemed like it was about to happen. 2,700 pro-slavery men came to Lawrence, and the city was defended by anti-slavery men." Join the first two sentences with "when" and full stop after Lawrence. "The city was defended...." will work better as a short sentence. I think this keeps the ideas together.Peterdownunder (talk) 05:55, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
•  Done "from the extralegal (having no real authority) anti-slavery government" - ??? who/where was this anti-slavery government? I need more detail here.Peterdownunder (talk) 10:40, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Added a mention that some of the people Jones tried to arrest on April 23, 1856 were people who weren't just resisting laws, but also because they created their own legislature. There isn't much detail to be had other than they did it because they hated the normal legislature. ~Junedude433^talk 01:36, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
•  Done "On July 15, 1857, he sent an army to Lawrence, and he declared martial law." Remove the second "he", it is not needed.Peterdownunder (talk) 10:40, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Review

Just thought I would run through the article quickly. Below are a few comments. I have reviewed up to (but not including) the arts and culture section):

•  Done In 2010, 87,643 people lived there; though in 2019, there were 98,193 people. - Are both necessary, especially in the intro? Maybe in a section about demographics, but I think only the latest figure is necessary here.
  •  Comment: I kind of thought that the usual format is first citing the census (since it was the last "official" count), then followed by the most recent credible estimate. Since it's just an estimate (even if credible) and not the official count, I included both. ~Junedude433^talk 00:03, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

     DoneIt reads poorly, though, because it is unclear which is official and which isn't. Maybe specify the latter is an estimate.--Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done This makes it the sixth-biggest city in Kansas - Reference?
  • Didn't add a reference, but instead linked to the table that shows the list of cities in Kansas by population. Lawrence is number six. ~Junedude433^talk 00:03, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

    That'll do. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done The New England Emigrant Aid Company (NEEAC) created Lawrence - When?
• Lawrence started as an important place for free-state politics. - Says who?
  •  Comment: Says no one in particular, but the article makes it very apparent. There's not really any one individual source for this since the article explains so much about how it was important. It contains all of the components needed to be able to make that statement, but no individual component alone can be used without the others. The way I see it is that it's the lead. It's meant to be a simple intro for what you're about to read and/or be somewhat of a summary about the basics of what you need to know about the topic. Trying to explain everything there would be off-topic and make the lead a bit too heavy I think. ~Junedude433^talk 00:03, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

    I get what you mean. I'm deliberately being critical because this is PVGA. Having read the Lawrence Massacre article, as well, this makes more sense. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

    • So, should it change or not?

      No, it's fine. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:32, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

• There are many places in town where students like to go. - Doesn't add much to the intro.
  •  Comment: It basically explains what a college town is. I know that the link there technically solves that, but I feel like the flow is better with it.~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    I see. I'm not too concerned. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done Before the Kansas Territory was created - If you wanted to avoid the passive voice, you could say before the creation of the Kansas Territory.
•  Done That law basically undid the Missouri Compromise - What do you mean by basically? Did it undo it, or not?
  •  Comment: It did not "officially" repeal the Missouri Compromise, but it made the effects of that bill moot. If it actually, truly repealed it, I wouldn't have included "basically." ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

     Done I would argue that basically is not precise (nor very encyclopaedic). I suggest changing to a better term. Maybe in practice? --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

• This is because the state next to Kansas is Missouri, which was a slave state - Use past tense? Or rephrase.
  •  Comment: Missouri is still the state next to Kansas, so I used present tense. Missouri no longer is a slave state since slavery was outlawed, but it was at the time, so I used past tense. Personally, I'm not sure of a better way to phrase it without it being more complicated. Maybe "This is because the state next to Kansas is Missouri, which was a slave state at the time."? ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    I suspected this was why you mixed tenses here. I just think it reads oddly. Grammatically I think it's ok, though, so you can probably leave as is. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done Decide on whether the NEEAC is plural or singular and stick to it (adjust pronouns accordingly)

  Still needs looking at. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

  • I decided to make it singular. ~Junedude433^talk 15:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done Settlers - Is this simple?
  • Couldn't think of a better word to use, but I now linked the word to the article for it.~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    That's good. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

• exploring - Is this simple?
  •  Comment: "Explore" was linked to earlier in the article, and I thought it to be redundant to link it again. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    That's fine. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done the group came to St. Louis, and met Charles Robinson - remove comma
•  Done He gave them transportation, and told them what to do - ditto
• ; this was the start of the city - change semicolon to full stop
•  Done Many felt they had been tricked by the NEEAC - Make active (Many felt the NEEAC had tricked them)
•  Done protect - Is this simple?
  •  Comment: I couldn't really think of a better word to use. "Defend" isn't on the combined wordlist either. "Guard" is, but that is often used as a noun, but I was needing a verb. I linked the word to the article on protection. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    That's fine. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done Pro-slavery people went to Ferril's house, and threatened violence. - remove comma
•  Done The pro-slavery people left when they saw free-state people come with guns - coming
•  Done destroyed - Is this simple?
  •  Comment: "Destruction" is on the basic English wordlist. I figured that a simple change in conjugation wasn't enough to make it "not simple." Just in case, I linked to the Simple Wiktionary entry for "destroy" since the article for destruction is basically a disambiguation page. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    That's fine. I think the link is needed, because destroy and destruction sound somewhat different. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done On October 1, a woman destroyed a free-state man's tent. - Change order to the tent of a free-state man
•  Done honor - Is this simple?
  • I linked it to the article for honour. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done The writers of the newspapers wrote about their beliefs that slavery was wrong - belief
•  Done about 700-1,000 pro-slavery people from Missouri with guns - I would simplify this, as guns are mentioned two sentences later. Remove the with guns part
•  Done the pro-slavery people became happy - Do you become happy? I think were happy is clear enough.
•  Done legislature - Is this simple?
  • I linked it to the article on the Kansas legislature. I know "legislature" isn't simple, but I think it's necessary since it is referring specifically to the legislative branch of the government. If I just said "the government," that would also include other branches that might not be involved. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    Your solution is a good one. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done labelled - Is this simple?
  • Rephrased it to not include that word. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done so the rifles were not taken - Make active (e.g. so they did not take the rifles)
•  Done With the help of Horace Greeley, a howitzer was sent to Lawrence - Ditto (Maybe Horace Greeley helped send a howitzer to Lawrence)
•  Done killing him. - I would suggest a new sentence (This killed him.)
•  Done Robinson was chosen to lead the militia - make active (they chose Robinson to lead the militia)
•  Done prevent - Is this simple (maybe stop)
  •  Comment: Linked to the Simple Wiktionary entry for prevent. While I agree "stop" is simpler, I would argue it would be incorrect in this context. "Stop" in this context means that the fight is already occurring - which it wasn't. He wanted to make sure the fight didn't happen at all, so "prevent" would make more sense here. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    I guess that works. An alternative might have been stopped it happening or something similar.

•  Done illegal - Is this simple? (maybe not legal)
•  Done to enforce the law, but they also wanted - I would make this into two sentences.
•  Done They hit the printing presses - Did they literally hit the presses (with sticks)? This isn't clear. If they just went to the printing presses, then change accordingly.
  •  Comment: They literally hit the presses. I don't know if it was with a blunt weapon, specifically, but they definitely attacked them. I decided to change the word to "struck" since that also means "hit" in this context, and I linked to the appropriate article. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    I think that's better. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done The city was defended by anti-slavery men - Make active (Anti-slavery men defended the city)
•  Done defended - Is this simple?
  • I now linked it to the article on Defense (military). ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    Good. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done reinforcements - Is this simple?
  •  Comment: I linked to the wiktionary entry for reinforcement. Also, "reinforcement" is included on the combined wordlist. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    Fair enough! I'd never have guessed it was on the list, probably why I didn't even check that one! --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done force - In this context, is it simple?
  •  Comment: I couldn't think of another word that was simple enough for this. "Require" isn't on the combined wordlist, and I fell "made" is a bit too ambiguous. I also wanted to better imply that the people of Lawrence would not be willing to follow the new laws, and "require" or something similar doesn't imply that very well. I decided to link to the Simple Wiktionary entry on force, specifically the section for the verb form. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    That works for me. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done Lawrence basically became the capital of Kansas - Again, not sure what basically means here. It either did, or it didn't.
  •  Comment: It did not officially become the capital since the constitution hadn't been written yet that declared Topeka to become the capital. However, since Lawrence was basically the most "political" city in Kansas (and it was among the largest cities at that time), it was basically the place where legislators and higher-profile political figures would meet to discuss politics. I can't think of a single simple word that conveys this, and the synonyms that come to mind (e.g. "unofficial," "informal") aren't simple enough. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

     Done I think you could use in practice as well. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done The United States Congress approved the Wyandotte Constitution, and Kansas became a free state on January 29, 1861 - split into two sentences.
•  Done Pro-slavery people in Kansas knew they lost - had lost
•  Done These Jayhawkers went to Missouri, where they stole items and burned farms. - Make two sentences.
•  Done This attack was known as - was or still is? If the latter, then change to is.
•  Done the people were afraid - remove the
  •  Comment: Are you sure? Without it, it implies that far more people that weren't there were afraid of another attack. With it, it specifies that the people there living in the city were afraid of another attack. I doubt that someone in Ohio was afraid of an attack on Lawrence. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

     Done Maybe the people of Lawrence to clarify? --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done The only cities left were Emporia and Lawrence - This is confusing, because on the one hand it says a university was opened, and on the other hand that there were only two cities left. Only later do you find out that there is a second university. This needs clarifying.
  •  Comment: Hmm, upon further research, I couldn't find a specific reason why the state was fine with establishing two public universities when it seemed like they were starting with one. Both universities were approved at a nearly identical time, it's hard to clarify this, but I tried. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    I think it reads better now. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done but it was reopened in 1977 by the city - Make active (but the city reopened it...)
• prevent - see above, is this simple?
  •  Comment: Per previous fix, is this still a problem? ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    Fine now. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done it costed them $9,700 - cost (also, I would use a full stop instead of a semicolon before)
•  Done Native Americans - Link
•  Done In 1970, Lawrence built a new city hall, so the building became a museum, the Watkins Community Museum which opened in 1975 - Split into two sentences.
•  Done where the water - When the water
•  Done they dedicated the Lawrence Municipal Airport - dedicated to what/whom?
  •  Comment: Honestly, I'm not sure. My research didn't turn up any results about to what/whom it was dedicated. Even the city page uses the word "dedicated," but they don't elaborate either. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

     Done I have checked this in the OED. I wonder whether it is the lesser used meaning: To open formally to the public; to inaugurate, make public. In this case, maybe we could say opened to the public? --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

    • It probably was that definition. I changed it to "opened to the public". ~Junedude433^talk 15:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done In 1943 during World War II - comma after year
•  Done It also has a restaurant. - The brewing company does? or Lawrence? Clarify.
  •  Comment: To the best of my knowledge, it started out as a brewery, but also quickly became a restaurant too. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    Better now. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done blocked - Is this simple?
  • No, it's not, but I couldn't think of another verb to describe it. I just decided to use the proper term - "dammed" - and linked to the appropriate article. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done maintained - Is this simple?
  • Decided to change it to "supported". ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done It is southeast of Lawrence. - What is? Or do you mean they are?
  • I was actually referring to the wetlands themselves. I specified it now. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done people from Lawrence; it was created in 1854 - Use full stop.
•  Done humid - Is this simple?
  • Now linked to humidity. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done rule - rules (there are two, as far as I can tell)
  • I didn't find any information about breaking the rule about the war heroes, and since they were all renamed, it's a moot point anyway. The rule that was referred to was the rule about the streets being named after states. I now specified it better in the article. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• getting rid - Is this simple?
  •  Comment: I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it. This time period was a bit transitory in the Temperance movement, since many were not advocating making alcohol illegal, just wanting to reduce people's consumption of it (or convince others to abstain entirely). However, some were definitely wanting to ban it outright. Either way, I couldn't think of a great way to phrase this, since "ban," "outlaw," "prohibit," "abstain," etc. are not simple, and there's no good way to encompass everything the Temperance movement stood for without getting seriously off-topic. ~Junedude433 ^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    I can't really find anything else. Could we link to something like dispose? --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

    • I don't think dispose is a good word for this. That can also mean "throwing out," which is not what the temperance movement wanted to do. That makes them sound like some environmentalist group that is fighting against littering. It was about ending the practice of drinking alcohol (some wanted it to be outlawed entirely, others just wanted to convince people to stop by themselves). "Ending the practice of drinking alcohol" is much clearer (and still simple) to describe it, although "practice" has multiple definitions that could be confused. Maybe replacing it with "activity"? Although, that also has multiple definitions. While I personally suggest keeping "getting rid of" since that implies wiping it from existence, if we had to change it, I would need to know which word to use in that phrase would be good. ~Junedude433^talk 15:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

      I take your point. I can live with it as is. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:32, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done Lawrence has Victorian, Gothic, Tudor, Romanesque, and other styles. - Source?
•  Done Lawrence's planning and urban development department believes that Lawrence reached 100,000 people in early 2018. - This seems to contradict the other numbers in the intro and this section. Maybe this needs explaining, and/or repositioning further down.

  This still needs looking at. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

  • I've decided to just remove it. At the time, we didn't have the official estimate from the Census, so there was more purpose to having it. The only downside is that we now have a fewer page linking to urban planning. ~Junedude433^talk 15:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done 24.4% of them had children under 18 years old; 35.6% of them had married people; 8.8% had only a woman as the main person (with no man); 4% had... - I would probably use full stops. Same lower down.
• per capita income - would income per capita be simpler?
  •  Comment: I don't see how one is inherently simpler than the other. "Per capita" is an adjective to be specify what measure of income is being used. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    I think the word order Article/Noun/Adjective is simpler in this case, hence my suggestion. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

    • I personally disagree, since in so many English terms, it's Adjective+Noun. We would say "brown bear," not "bear brown," and it would be more complex to say "the bear that is brown". The Simple English page and the standard English article both have it as "per capita income" as well as several dictionaries. The free dictionary has an [entry for per capita income], but it doesn't for [income per capita]. Collin's dictionary's entry for [income per capita] literally just redirects to its entry on "per capita income". Doing a bit more research, I usually see "Noun per capita" for everything except just income. For instance, most of the time, it's "GDP per capita," "median income per capita," "COVID-19 cases per capita," etc., but there seem to be more uses of "per capita income" specifically instead of "income per capita". I would argue "per capita income is simpler". ~Junedude433^talk 15:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

      I see where you're coming from, albeit I still feel that it works equally well (if not better) the other way around. Not a big deal, though. Leave as is. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:32, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done poverty line - Is this simple?
  • I now linked it to the corresponding article. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• There seem to be no sources for the census statistics.
  •  Comment: Where are you pointing to, specifically? Do you mean the population table at the right? Do you mean the paragraphs in the sub-sections? If the former, the reference at the bottom where it says "U.S. Decennial Census" is the one that applies to all. If the latter, the sources at the beginning of the sub-sections apply for the entire thing. To be more explicit, I copied the reference and added it at the end of those sections. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done However, Lawrence has a lot of students, and students are usually poor. - Is this true? Source?
  •  Comment: The sources for this were put on the sentence immediately after this. I assume the problematic state is that students are poor? Upon reading the sources, it doesn't say whether it's because students are poor, but rather how students' incomes are measured can be highly misleading and skew the data in a way that doesn't seem right. Specifically, that there really isn't a way for a student to make a significant amount of money since they would be so busy with classes, but student loans, gifts, other expenses being covered (e.g. parents paid off their rent), etc. aren't being included in the measure since it is literally only going off of income. I'm not sure of a way to rephrase this simply without going extremely off-topic in the article, so I simply changed it to "students usually have lower incomes". ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    Could we say most students do not have full-time jobs? Would that go some way towards clarifying it? --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

    • That might go a little ways towards explaining it, but I feel like that would be getting a bit too off-topic. I think it would be better if we simply stated the fact that students tend to have lower incomes (with the sources being there for more information) instead of explaining the discrepancy. That would be better suited for an article on its own. ~Junedude433^talk 15:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

      That's fine. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:32, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done Maximus - How about adding a sentence in the section to explain what this is?
  • Added a link. ~Junedude433^talk 15:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done gazebo - Is this simple?
  • Added a link. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done disc golf - link
•  Done It is one of the oldest buildings in Lawrence, built in 1854, but it was burned in 1855 - Make into two sentences
•  Done to look better. - according to who? Subjective.
  • I was trying to get around using "renovate," but now just decided to use it and link it to the Simple Wiktionary entry on that word. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    I think it's probably better. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done haunt - Is this simple?
  • Added a link to haunted house, since it not only explains what "haunt" means, but it goes into much more detail. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done football is linked to the general article about all types of football. I assume it is for American football? Link as such.
•  Done basketball - link
•  Done Lawrence has many historic houses, and some of them are on the National Register of Historic Places. - reference?
  • I moved the final sentence to the beginning of the paragraph since it does a better job at leading that paragraph. This way, the following information elaborates on this. Many of the references listed in that paragraph are links to their corresponding entry on the NRHP. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

I hope these comments help. I will finish reviewing over the weekend. --Yottie ^=talk= 21:18, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate the in-depth review. This is what I was hoping to receive. I'll go through the article to correct these. ~Junedude433^talk 22:57, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

• I have now fixed many of the problems in this section, and I will move on to part two. ~Junedude433^talk 17:50, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

  I have replied to some of the comments. A couple of things still need looking at, but well done on fixing the majority of the issues! --Yottie ^=talk= 18:55, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

  • @Yottie: I have fixed some of the remaining problems and responded to the ones that weren't fixed. ~Junedude433^talk 15:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

    @Junedude433: You've done a really good job here. Well done. --Yottie ^=talk= 18:32, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Review (2)

• Lawrence is known for a thriving music and art culture. - Bold statement.
•  Done perform - Is this simple?
  • Added a link. ~Junedude433^talk 19:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done showed up - simple? (maybe use went)
•  Done , and others - not necessary, if you are using including
•  Done people could also play disc golf, yoga, hiking, and swimming - you play disc golf, but do you play the other things? Add a verb.
•  Done The festival moved to Mulberry Mountain, Arkansas due to a disagreement between the organizers and the Kansas Department of Wildlife and Parks about the limits on the number of people, and the rent. - The sentence is too long. Split into two or three sentences.
•  Done Every year since 1959, on the third Thursday in July, Lawrence has the "Massachusetts Street sidewalk sale. - Has had.
•  Done It is a big sale on Massachusetts Street, and many stores take part. - potentially split into two sentences.
•  Done The University of Kansas (KU) - Does this need linking again? It is linked in the intro. If anything, maybe link again in the section about it opening. Also, no need to re-explain the acronym.
•  Done athletics - Is this simple?
  • Changed to sports. ~Junedude433^talk 19:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• The most famous team is the men's basketball team. Many people watch the men's basketball team - Source?
•  Done The city honored the mascot in 2003. - Source?
  • It was actually part of the collection of sentences about the statues being placed around town. I merged that sentence with another to imply this better. ~Junedude433^talk 19:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done statue - Is this simple?
  • Added a link. ~Junedude433^talk 19:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done It is run by the KU Rugby Football Club - Change from passive to active voice.
•  Done Lawrence is run by a city commission and city manager. - Ditto.
•  Done The commission is made of five people who are elected. - Ditto.
  • Honestly though, it sounds really weird in active voice. ~Junedude433^talk 19:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done Lawrence is very Democratic. - Rewrite to sounds less ambiguous (although it is linked and capitalised, it doesn't mean democratic in the usual sense - I think it's worth rewording)
• Lawrence has been Democratic since the late 1980s. - Source?
  •  Comment: Sadly, there isn't a source that specifically says this. It's just that, if you look at election results (especially for president) for Douglas County (I know not all of the county is just Lawrence, but Lawrence does comprise about 80% of the county's population, so I think it's a fair stand-in), you would see that Douglas County was heavily Republican. However, in 1988, the Democrat-Republican vote was almost even. From there, Lawrence always voted Democratic by a significant margin. This can be seen on the article for Douglas County. ~Junedude433^talk 19:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done I'm not sure I get the progression going from most recent to older (regarding the election). I would make this chronological, like the rest of the article.
•  Done Republican Steve Watkins represents Lawrence in the House of Representatives. Pat Roberts and Jerry Moran represent Lawrence in the Senate. Both of them are Republicans. - I would drop the first Republican and say all three are Republican.
•  Done In 1995, Lawrence was the first city in Kansas that made discrimination against gay people illegal. - Source?
•  Done Lawrence was the first city in Kansas to do this - Source?
•  Done In April 2005, there was a change to the Kansas Constitution which made same-sex marriage and civil unions for gay people illegal. - Source?
  • The source was in the very next sentence. It felt a bit redundant copying the same source to sentence right next to each other, but I went ahead and did that anyway. ~Junedude433^talk 19:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done They give free tuition to all Native American students. - It gives.
•  Done Parents & Colleges said Lawrence is one of the 10 best college towns - was
•  Done Again, make the order chronological.
•  Done After it was burned in Quantrill's Raid, a new library was built in 1865. - split into two sentences.
•  Done improved - Is this simple?
  • The design changed via renovation. Rewrote it to reflect this. ~Junedude433^talk 19:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done There is also a student newspaper published by the University of Kansas, the University Daily Kansan.[ - Make two sentences.
•  Done The company was started by two students from the University of Kansas. - Make active voice.
•  Done Many people also get the University of Kansas student newspaper - Source?
•  Done I have just noticed that Kansas River is linked on the second time it is used in the Bleeding Kansas section. It should be linked on the first use, in the section above.
•  Done Lawrence has Internet service providers including Midco, Wicked Broadband, CenturyLink, HughesNet, Allconnect, ViaSat Satellite, Exede, Wild Blue Internet, and others. - No need for and others. (In both cases)
•  Done Langston Hughes was poet, and he grew up in Lawrence while his grandmother took care of him. Who grew up.
•  Done Alan Mulally, former CEO of Ford, grew up in Lawrence; he was a member of the Plymouth Congregational Church. - Full stop instead of semicolon.
•  Done and at the University of Kansas. - to the UoK (I get what you mean by at, but grammatically I think to is more elegant)
•  Done The Notable people section has no references.
  • It was kind of meant as a launchpad for the other pages, but I went ahead and added the references anyway. ~Junedude433^talk 19:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
• Lawrence was the setting for many books by science fiction writer James Gunn, including the The Immortals (1964). - Source?
• destroy - Is this simple (as per the previous review)
  • Per previous fix, is this still a problem? ~Junedude433^talk 19:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done folk - link
•  Done inspired - Is this simple?
  • Linked to the Simple Wiktionary entry. ~Junedude433^talk 19:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
•  Done It was inspired by a homeless family the band saw while visiting the town around Christmas - Make active voice.
  • Not gonna lie, it sounds very weird in active voice. ~Junedude433^talk 19:59, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

    You could always split into two sentences. E.g. The band saw a homeless family while visiting the town around Christmas. This family inspired the song. --Yottie ^=talk= 21:18, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

•  Done Lawrence is the normal starting place for the map program Google Earth (2005) - Source?
•  Done Brian McClendon chose the place. - Source?
•  Done Vangent was purchased by General Dynamics in 2011. - Make active voice.
•  Done The call center that was owned by General Dynamics in Lawrence was bought by Maximus in 2018. - Ditto.

I think that is all for now. I will try to go through all the references over the next couple of days. I hope this helps! --Yottie ^=talk= 19:23, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Far too long

This article has 5000 more words than the World War II article. Anyone else think this is a problem? Mebigrouxboy (talk) 01:56, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Not really, as articles don't need to be short on the Simple English Wikipedia, just needs to make sure that the article is written in Simple English. --Tsugaru let's talk! :) 02:11, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, I think the problem it shows is that there aren't enough people who want to edit the article about World War II rather than the issue being about Lawrence, Kansas. I made it this long because I had the drive to do so. I simply don't have that same passion for World War II. ~Junedude433^talk 04:56, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

First free school

Minor question here. In the sentence

On January 10, 1855, Lawrence's first free school was built.

somebody linked "free" to "free people of color". However the meaning was "without cost". As the word "free" can have multiple meanings, and this was clearly misinterpreted, it may be better to clarify this. Can anyone change this sentence so it's more clear? Lights and freedom (talk) 20:48, 2 September 2022 (UTC)