Wikipedia:Simple talk

Again: Change the languages on the log in pageEdit

A year ago, and a few months before that, the idea was discussed to change the languages on the login page. I have looked at the data a bit more to see which languages would be best.

Here are the medians of February, March, and April monthly pageviews by country:

Extended content

In total, about 12M were listed by country. This is supposed to exclude bot views.

  1. USA (3M)
  2. India (3M)
  3. South Africa (1M)
  4. UK (655K)
  5. Canada (390K)
  6. Russia (344K)
  7. Philippines (288K)
  8. Germany (280K)
  9. Pakistan (199K)
  10. Australia (197K)
  11. Uzbekistan (152K)
  12. France (136K)
  13. Italy (112K)
  14. Netherlands (112K)
  15. Nigeria (109K)
  16. Singapore (107K)
  17. Kazakhstan (98K)
  18. Indonesia (96K)
  19. Iran (89K)
  20. Malaysia (75K)
  21. Bangladesh (68K)
  22. Turkey (64K)
  23. Spain (63K)
  24. Japan (62K)
  25. Belarus (61K)
  26. Sweden (59K)
  27. Ukraine (53K)
  28. Poland (53K)
  • So the most significant countries that might need accomodation are India, Russia, Philippines, Germany, and Pakistan, in particular.
  • I strongly support adding Russian. Not only does Russia have a lot of readers, but so do many other countries in Central Asia and Eastern Europe that do as well. All these countries have grown hugely in readers since February (probably due to the ongoing war and looking for outside media sources), but they were high even before. I estimated that about 6% of readership speaks Russian.
  • Chinese is the world's second most spoken language. There aren't many pageviews from China, but that might be because Wikipedia is banned there and they use VPNs that appear to be from other countries. How much is Chinese spoken in Malaysia and Indonesia?
  • There aren't that many readers from Arabic speaking countries. People might use it a bit in places like Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Iran, but I'm not sure. At least they use the Arabic script, which may be easier to read.
  • German: quite high on the list; Germany and Austria make up about 2.5% of pageviews. But I think most of them speak English.
  • Dutch: I've read 90% of people in the Netherlands speak English. Not that useful.
  • Esperanto: Remove. Not useful.
  • Hindi: although it's only spoken in one country, that country makes up 25% of pageviews. I've read only 10% of Indians speak English, but about 60% speak Hindi.
  • French: somewhat useful. France has a fairly high number of views, so does Canada.
  • Spanish: There aren't that many pageviews from Spanish speaking countries, but it makes up a large part of the world. Also, 25% of pageviews are from the US and there are a lot of Spanish speakers there. Maybe they make up a lot of readers of simple english. Spanish might also be somewhat common in the Philippines.
  • Portuguese: Portugal and Brazil together make up about 0.5% of pageviews. Not that useful.
  • Swahili was mentioned before, but although it could be good for inclusion to have an African language, less than 1% of views come from countries where that language could be used, and a lot of them speak English or Arabic.
  • English is an official language of the Philippines, so Tagalog is probably not needed.

So my suggestions: English, Russian, Chinese, Hindi, Arabic?, Spanish, German?, French. Lights and freedom (talk) 23:08, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

I can tell you that the younger Chinese-Indonesians don't know a lot of Chinese, definitely not enough to read the login page in zhwiki. Some don't even speak Chinese at all! With how language education works here, people are more encouraged to use Indonesian. The fact that Chinese was restricted during Suharto's reign needs to be taken into account as well. As for Malaysia, I have no idea.
So far, I support removing Esperanto, adding Hindi and Chinese. — *Fehufangą✉ Talk page 23:59, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I'm for that also. And maybe Italian should be considered. Macdonald-ross (talk) 06:24, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
Macdonald-ross, Italian is already on the list --Ferien (talk) 18:50, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Lights and freedom Where are your sources? All you say is "I've read" but you don't list any sources or even names of said sources. JanKeso (talk) 17:57, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
@JanKeso The number of pageviews by country are from here. However I'm not going to put a source for every fact I stated. Lights and freedom (talk) 18:06, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
I'm down with Hindi and Chinese, and removing Esperanto. Griff (talk) 20:32, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for bringing this up again. I've posted this twice previously, but it always got bogged down. A few comments. Esperanto and Dutch need to go at the very least. Some things to consider in the language selection: serving current users, attracting new users, and messaging. The data on where users come from is useful, but needs some thought, too. For example, English may be the official language of the Philippines, but native Tagalog and Cebuano speakers are 40M people. Official language does not always equate to readers. Selecting some languages that are very widely spoken even though we (currently) have fewer visitors from those countries may welcome them in (i.e., Arabic). Finally, Wikipedias in general are often perceived to lack diversity. The languages we select do say something about our intentions. Simple can be a useful center for translating articles. Being more open to an African language might be a good idea. At least one south Asian or Southeast Asian language should be added. That could be Hindi. Gotanda (talk) 01:53, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
One more thing: another approach is to simply adopt a common standard from elsewhere. The official languages of the UN are Arabic, Chinese, English, French, Russian and Spanish. Thanks. Hope the login page gets an update. Gotanda (talk) 01:57, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
  • At this point in the discussion we have unanimity among the participants that Esperanto should be removed and a very strong consensus for removing Dutch. There is also a pretty strong consensus for adding Hindi and Chinese. If nothing else, these improvements seem to have broad support and no opposition. What is required to make sure this doesn't drop by the wayside yet again? Thanks --Gotanda (talk) 08:35, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
    @Griffinofwales@Macdonald-ross@Auntof6@Eptalon @Ferien (I pinged the more active admins that I see but please feel free to bring in others) - Admins I wanted to ping you on this. As it’s stated it has been brought up a couple of times with no changes. There is input from 2 admins on this thread and appears to have consensus on the changes requested. I also just looked at the metrics and I am in agreement as well with what is being said. I believe admins can change the entry page and I feel that some of the main editors should be able to have some input on this. If it is rejected it would be good to know why it can’t be done. Thank you for your attention and I look forward to your responses. PDLTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 03:49, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
    Yeah, I agree that there is consensus for these four changes suggested by Gotanda. Lights and freedom (talk) 22:29, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
    I could interpret an opinion from 10 users: @Fehufanga, Macdonald-ross, Griffinofwales, Ferien, TTP1233, Gotanda, PotsdamLamb, ImprovedWikiImprovment, and Djsasso: and myself. All seemed to support removing Esperanto and adding Hindi. At least 9 seemed to support adding Chinese, and at least 6 removing Dutch. Sorry if I got anyone's vote wrong. Lights and freedom (talk) 23:04, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
    Hello, thank you @Lights and freedom for this invitation. Being a Wikipedia user, I believe that the language must be added only if it has higher demand to read. If Hindi is added it will be good as many Indian especially Hindi speaking people does accommodate with English yet. So they would prefer reading only hindi articles. So I do support for hindi.
    But I refuse to give consent about other languages as I'm not aware of it and I don't want to give wrong facts. But as I said, adding languages having higher demand to read and understand may be a great initiative. That's all from my side. Jyoti Roy (talk) 03:27, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
    Can we get any admins to assess this? Lights and freedom (talk) 15:57, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
    How is it done? I feel it might be an interface admin thing. I imagine there is probably a page where we can the languages on the login page can be set but I have no clue where it would be. --Ferien (talk) 18:19, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
    @Ferien You should be able to edit it as an admin. Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 18:23, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
    PotsdamLamb, what page is it though? --Ferien (talk) 18:25, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
    I will hit you on IRC Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 18:26, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
    For people who may be looking at this in the archives, here's the link for convenience and possible future discussions: MediaWiki:Loginlanguagelinks --Ferien (talk) 18:45, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
I do want to ask Gotanda and Lights and freedom, why should we remove Dutch? While I understand not many people use it, it is already there and there is no limit to how many languages we can have - and it is a fairly major one. I think it is better to just keep languages you are considering removing as they are on all other WMF sites and I think it would be better uniform. --Ferien (talk) 18:54, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
@Ferien 6 votes to remove Dutch Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 19:03, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
I do not know where 6 votes came from. Looking at this page and the other discussion linked at the top of the page, I can only see 2 votes to remove Dutch. There certainly isn't any strong consensus to remove Dutch. --Ferien (talk) 19:05, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
@Ferien They are probably (as I would) counting those who are saying I support this and add Italian (macdonald-ross) and others with similar comments. We can list each individual for a vote if you would like to make it easier. Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 19:09, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

So, looking above, I am adding Chinese, Hindi and Russian and removing Esperanto. There is not a clear consensus for adding Arabic or removing Dutch, so I'm not doing either at this time. This can always be changed at a later date. --Ferien (talk) 19:08, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

@Ferien Excellent! I guess there's no need to remove Dutch as there's no maximum to the languages allowed. It looks like everything translates into the those languages except "Simple Talk". I wonder if somebody who speaks Chinese, Hindi, or Russian could propose a translation. Lights and freedom (talk) 19:58, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
I just realized that "Simple Talk" is not translated into any of the languages. Lights and freedom (talk) 20:01, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
When we say Chinese, are we talking about Cantonese or Mandarin? --Tsugaru let's talk! :) 20:17, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
@User:つがる I don't think that should matter. All varieties of Chinese are written the same way in Simplified or Traditional, right? Lights and freedom (talk) 20:23, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
@Lights and freedom It comes down to the way it is written as different "strokes" mean something different on the language from my understanding. Is that correct User:つがる? Also, L&F if they want the entire article in their language, they should be able to have their browser translate, but you have to remember, this is simple english. Each language can put the articles in their own wikipedia if they choose. I do not personally know of another way to convert the site to another language without going to their respective wikipedias. Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 20:32, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
@PotsdamLamb I mean that if you go to the login page and click on another language, all the links on the login page and the sidebar are in that language, except for "Simple talk". The link to "Simple talk" isn't translated even for the languages that were there before (like Spanish, German, Dutch, etc.) so I don't know if it's even possible to change it. Try logging out and then switching the language yourself: you'll see what I mean. Lights and freedom (talk) 20:43, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
I can't read Chinese Characters very much, however the tones from mandarin and Cantonese are very different. Tsugaru let's talk! :) 20:45, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
PotsdamLamb See above forgot to ping --Tsugaru let's talk! :) 20:47, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
I can't say for sure, Lights and freedom. However sometimes depending on the situation they might be different. For example this is the traditional way to write China 中國 and this is the simplified way 中国。I am not able to read Cantonese, but I can only speak and listen to it. To be honest my guess is it be situation dependent. You might end up with a time where a speaker of either language gets confused by what is written. The reason I ask this is because I don't want us to end up in a situation where we write in a Chinese translation, that it might end up confusing some readers. I would ask someone more about this who can read Chinese Characters. --Tsugaru let's talk! :) 20:44, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
@つがる I speak and write Mandarin, and I can barely make out spoken Hakka that's used by my grandparents. I would personally go with Mandarin, since it's the most widely spoken variety. As for whether or not we use simplified/traditional, why not both? I've personally switched to typing using traditional characters only, but I can understand simplified perfectly fine. — *Fehufangą✉ Talk page 22:31, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
Yea Simplified seems okay. Though I believe with Cantonese (depending on the person/where they are from) they may prefer traditional characters. Tsugaru let's talk! :) 01:00, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Dutch should be removed for space, number of users of the language, and concentration. Space: while more and more languages can be added, too many make selection in this format more difficult; removing it improves usability. Number of users: there are other languages with more speakers; there are dozens of languages with more speakers. Moreover, English is widely understood in Holland. Concentration: we have quite a lot of European languages. Wikipedias in general lack diversity. There have been programs for encouraging use in the global south. So, Dutch does not help us much. Arabic would be much better. --Gotanda (talk) 22:25, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
So here is my thought. Let's list all the languages presented here as a vote. The only thing you need to do is either using the template for *support {{support}} or *oppose {{oppose}} and sign it with ~~~~. Only vote once per language presented if you change your mind from support to oppose or oppose to support, be sure to strike out your previous vote. If this sounds good, please let me know and I will set it up. This would be a good time to use the support or oppose templates :) Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 22:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
I'm tempted to be bold and draw a consensus here and make the changes, but a vote would make this easier and less likely for the action to be opposed. Also, I have spoken in this area before I believe, which makes me involved, which is the only reason I haven't done it. If anyone else agrees to a vote, one can be constructed. Do we have any admins that are active and not involved? This cannot be left to disappear again, considering the amount of work that has been done above. --IWI (talk) 21:23, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Also, there are multiple ideas here, and it would be difficult for an admin to draw any valid consensus from it, which means a vote would be a good idea, or at least more discussion and more users involved preferably. --IWI (talk) 21:25, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
@ImprovedWikiImprovment It looks like only one admin, not counting Sasso, has not commented that I can see. Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 21:28, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
@ImprovedWikiImprovment - I offered to set it up. If you would like me to, I can. It would be a simple page with the languages listed individually based on all of them listed here as either the deletion or addition (again per above) and then a vote of support or oppose. I can create this page under a separate request for comments and we can link to it there. Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 21:27, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
I'd   Oppose Gotanda's idea because space is not really a problem for us. Just look at pt:MediaWiki:Loginlanguagelinks. We're doing fine. It's also on every other Wikimedia site unless you can think of another one that does not have Dutch. I don't see why it should be removed, the number of speakers is not all that low. We can add Arabic and keep Dutch. We do not have to swap them. --Ferien (talk) 21:29, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
@PotsdamLamb: That would be good, but keeping here is a good idea; seperating it to another page is unnecessery. Recent changes should draw attention, and I've also posted comments on both the main and admin IRC channels. --IWI (talk) 21:31, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
@ImprovedWikiImprovment It will just make this page extremely long and unyielding in IMHO. Unless we can collapse this entire chat and open a new one for the voting, but most RF anything's have their own page for the request (i.e. requests for permissions, like the mop) Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 21:59, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
To me, that linked list makes my point regarding space. It is long and not clear how it is organized so that languages can be found quickly. For example:
  • Hornjoserbsce|hsb
  • Magyar|hu
  • Italiano|it
  • 日本語|ja
  • Ripoarisch|ksh
  • Latina|la
  • Lëtzebuergesch|lb
  • Plattdüütsch|nds
One of the principles here is not just Simple English, but simple organization. The linked list does not address my second and third points: speakers and concentration in Europe. --Gotanda (talk) 22:02, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Gotanda, my point is not that we should be aiming to have as many languages as ptwiki, but that we are nowhere near any limit and space is not a problem. The amount of native Dutch speakers is 23.1 million, that is not small. Yes, a lot of our languages right now are concentrated in Europe, but if we could always just add more from other continents if we are worried about that. Yeah, if logging in in a different language was a whole new concept and we got to choose a few languages to put on there, Dutch would not be one we'd put on there today, but as it is available on most Wikimedia wikis and as there is a reasonable amount of Dutch Wikimedia users, I see no reason to remove this from our list now. --Ferien (talk) 22:08, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
 (change conflict)  (change conflict) @PotsdamLamb: We tend not to create subpages for things like this (as far as I know). Like Gotanda said above, the spirit of simplicity does apply everywhere on this wiki. If other people think it is a good idea then sure, but it just seems like it will be less visible and thus fewer votes. --IWI (talk) 22:09, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Where I'd be most concerned about space is on the mobile website, because of the smaller screen size and the different skin used there. Currently, the language links do not appear at all on mobile, so the issue of space isn't a big thing, and should only concern the desktop website. I   Oppose removing Dutch, there's enough space for it, and I'm fine with the current selection of links. — *Fehufangą✉ Talk page 22:25, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
  • I've uncollapsed this discussion. The admin who eventually closes this fully should read the whole discussion, because discussion shows consensus, not polling. I would even suggest collapsing the second part instead of this section, because it is just to make sure the closing admin understands what everyone supports/opposes. --Ferien (talk) 12:01, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Additional commentsEdit

  • Just a note that Filipino and Tagalog are basically the same thing. en:Filipino_language is "a standardized variety of Tagalog", and there is a "Tagalog Wikipedia" rather than a "Filipino Wikipedia", although there is apparently a debate about this, see en:Tagalog Wikipedia#Project name. Lights and freedom (talk) 16:00, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
    @Lights and freedom I separated them as Filipino is the official language of Pakistan, and Tagalog is the official language of the Philippines. That is why the are both listed. It is based on different countries, as it was brought up in the discussion so I listed them as the official languages for that country. Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 16:43, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
    @PotsdamLamb No, Filipino language is from the Philippines, not Pakistan. Lights and freedom (talk) 17:12, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
    @Lights and freedom Tagalog - Native to Philippines EN:Tagalog_language (look at infoxbox under native to). For Filipino vs. Tagalog, please see this. As far as Filipino I believe you are correct, as I may have misread it, but I would need to go back in my browser history and see where I pulled that from. However, irregardless of where it is from, this vote is based on the languages seen above in the discussion. Not whether they were considered valid for any particular country. The idea to be completely neutral is to list any and all that were brought for a consensus vote. So turning the vote into yet a 4th debate now, it is just to vote. Nothing was left out from the discussion that I know of and if there is a language I missed above in the discussion, please feel free to add it, but nothing should be removed from the list below as that would be unfair and defeat the entire purpose that we are trying to accomplish. Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 17:29, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
  • While Cebuano has 22 mil native speakers (comparable to dutch at 25 mil), it seems most either do not use it on Wikipedia, or are not interested in contributing to Wikipedia. On the English Wikipedia I counted only 56 users at the ceb-N babel, and 20 at both ceb-4 and ceb-3 (nobody is at ceb-5). The apparently large article count of the Cebuano Wikipedia is greatly contributed by Lsjbot, which creates bot generated articles. — *Fehufangą✉ Talk page 21:57, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Voting for languagesEdit

So first off, I collapsed the entire conversation for the sake of space. I apologize in advance if this offends you, but it is very long. The following will seek consensus for the entire thread above. Based on what I am reading, this will serve as the official consensus on what to add, keep, or remove from the languages on the login page on Simple Wikipedia. While I am included in the conversation and will cast my votes, this poll is being created strictly based on the topic and the languages listed. If I missed any, please add them to the respective area. This will be open for the standard 7-day period. If you have any comments, please put them in the section "Additional comments."

How to vote: Use either   Keep {{keep}} or   Oppose {{oppose}} and sign with your name by typing in ~~~~

  •   Comment: It is better to open up this entire section and vote for each language than to open up each and every language section. It eliminates watchers from getting a ton of alerts. I know I would appreciate it. Thanks, Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 21:50, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
  •   Comment: For those that have not voted or want to change their votes, this is a reminder the poll closes in 2 days. I have started tabulating the results and will be available for this discussion at the end of the polling time. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 23:11, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
    This is only a poll though... we should not make edits to the language list based on a poll. It should be a discussion not a vote. --Ferien (talk) 15:47, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
    @Ferien Once again, minus you removing 'Chinese' even though it was mentioned, so you went against the neutrality of the entire thing, this poll covers all of the languages discussed over and over and over and over again. I do not think anymore discussion is needed as the horse has been beaten to death already. This poll is an easier way to achieve the consensus needed based on all of the discussions. This was something that many people saw as a good idea, including IWI if you see above. You citing an essay is just an essay. Every is welcome to read the discussion and review it before making a decision. You shooting this down is not showing anything other than you do not agree with how the community is trying to make a clean area to gather consensus because reading through years of discussions will be time consuming. I asked you a while back to put Chinese back and you failed to do so. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 16:23, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
    @PotsdamLamb: There is no Chinese language. "Chinese" is covered by Mandarin and Cantonese. Also, you added languages like Urdu that have not been mentioned at all this whole discussion and a few languages that were only mentioned once or twice above. Maybe I linked the wrong thing - Wikipedia:Consensus is a policy and states clearly that voting does not show consensus and we can only act on this with consensus. "Some people may confuse consensus with other things. These are: Voting: consensus is not about seeing who has the most people on their side." --Ferien (talk) 16:33, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
    Urdu is the official language of Pakistan that is why it was added. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 16:46, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
    I am aware, it was just not in this discussion at all. --Ferien (talk) 21:22, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
    @Ferien It is in the top line under the green bar where it states "So the most significant countries that might need accomodation are India, Russia, Philippines, Germany, and Pakistan, in particular." I had added any language listed or if the country was listed, I looked up the primary language for that country and that is what got listed. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 21:30, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Poll TallyEdit

The polling has been closed. Below are the results from what I’ve added up based on the above. If I made a mistake, please feel free to correct it.

Entrance Page Languages Vote (aka login page)
Language Name Support votes Oppose votes Total votes Results
Arabic 5 0 5   Keep
Cantonese 4 1 5   Keep
Cebuano 0 4 4   Delete
Filipino 4 0 4   Keep
French 4 0 4   Keep
German 4 0 4   Keep
Hindi 5 0 5   Keep
Indonesian 5 0 5   Keep
Italian 3 2 5   Keep
Mandarin 5 0 5   Keep
Russian 5 1 6   Keep
Spanish 5 0 5   Keep
Swahili 4 2 6   Keep
Tagalog 2 3 5   Delete
Urdu 1 2 3   Delete
Dutch 3 2 5   Keep
Esperanto 0 6 6   Delete
Portuguese 4 1 5   Keep

```Net support:``` Thanks for the vote and tabulation, PDL. Another way to look at this is to consider both views. For example in voting for the Translation of the Day uses net support. That might change how we consider the keep / delete decisions depending on where the cut off should be. --Gotanda (talk) 05:28, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

@Gotanda The idea was not to complicate this even more. I did this as a simple majority vote, so which ever side had more votes wins. It’s just like an election. The higher votes win. That was the way I set up and was (what I thought) was pretty much clear by having only two vote options, basically for or against having the language. I am in no way shooting down your thoughts but that was the way I set it up so it is simple. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 06:06, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
Entrance Page Languages Vote (aka login page)
Language Name Support votes Oppose votes Net Results
Arabic 5 0 5   Keep
Cantonese 4 1 3   Keep
Cebuano 0 4 -4   Delete
Filipino 4 0 4   Keep
French 4 0 4   Keep
German 4 0 4   Keep
Hindi 5 0 5   Keep
Indonesian 5 0 5   Keep
Italian 3 2 1 ?
Mandarin 5 0 5   Keep
Russian 5 1 4   Keep
Spanish 5 0 5   Keep
Swahili 4 2 2 ?
Tagalog 2 3 -1   Delete
Urdu 1 2 -1   Delete
Dutch 3 2 1 ?
Esperanto 0 6 -6   Delete
Portuguese 4 1 3   Keep

The poll is now closed.

Reliable sourcesEdit

Hello. There is an article in the standard English Wikipedia that probably fits in this Wikipedia as well, but with sources talked more about here instead of the sources on the original English article.

Article layout proposal and discussionEdit

I am proposing changes to the guidelines on how an article should be laid out by sections and templates. Please join the discussion by going to Wikipedia_talk:Guide_to_layout#Article_layout_proposal_and_discussion. I look forward to everyone's comments and hopefully we come together as a community to improve simple. Thanks! PDLTalk to me!OMG, What have I done?

Proposal to deprecate Template:GeoboxEdit

I have started a discussion on deprecating Template:Geobox. To participate, please go to Template talk:Geobox#Proposal to completely deprecate this template. Thanks. -- Auntof6 (talk) 00:54, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

There has been some discussion on this proposal. If interested, see the page linked above. -- Auntof6 (talk) 01:17, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

There has been no objection to this (only one other editor commented, and they approved), so I am going to proceed. It will probably take a little time to completely eliminate use of the template, but we'll get there. --Auntof6 (talk) 20:45, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Question about patrollingEdit

Do all new pages, except those started by patrollers, eventually get patrolled? I'm asking because this impacts the urgency of catching problems in new pages before they leave the page creation log? Lights and freedom (talk) 02:33, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

That's a good question. I am not sure, but I've come across years old pages, and they are patrolled, but when checking the patrol log I can't find who patrolled the page. --Tsugaru let's talk! :) 02:49, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
Some pages don't end up getting patrolled. I think new pages stay in non-patrolled status for a limited time (30 days maybe?). After that they no longer show as needing to be patrolled even if no one has looked at them. -- Auntof6 (talk) 03:53, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. If that's the case, I'd suspect a lot of copies from enwiki, hoaxes, and nonnotable articles end up getting through. There have been a number of these today. Lights and freedom (talk) 04:00, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
@Lights and freedom: I suspect you're right. -- Auntof6 (talk) 04:03, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
In that case, I wonder why they drop off after 30 or so days? Is there anything wrong with letting them remain marked as "unpatrolled" until they are actually checked? I try to patrol new pages at least a little bit every time I log in. It seems like an important task for the reasons Lights and freedom raised. --Gotanda (talk) 22:24, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
@Gotanda: I think it's determined by the software. I don't know if an individual wiki can customize it or not. I do think that if pages stayed indefinitely, things would accumulate to a very large number. -- Auntof6 (talk) 23:02, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
@Auntof6@Gotanda@Lights and freedom@つがる - So from what I found out is that the software that runs it needs to be copied over to simple as it has some special pages we cannot create. As Auntof6 stated it could accumulate a lot of pages, but on the flip side, it will cut down on the nasty stuff we see as well. So it's a give and take situation. The difference with the NPP software is that it eliminates the 30 day hold and will keep it until it is reviewed and action is taken. Based on the script I can see we would also need to create a draft namespace (which from a developer point of view will not be that hard to do. What I can do, since I have a developer account on wikipedia already, is dig and ask around to see what all it would take and what types of customizations we could do. We would also need customized scripts of which I did one already but it doesn't work because we do not have the software on simple. To do this though, as it will be a few hours of research and questions, I would like to get feedback not only from the community, but also from administrators to see if this is something we would want to do here. I do subscribe to this page so I will get alerts but let me know your thoughts and for admins, if you think it would help or hinder your work that you have to do. I do not know the number of people with patroller rights as we are very small. I did a quick glance and I would say ~ 50 editors with one blocked for sockpuppetry is on the list, however, I do not know how active they are. Let me know what you would like and we can go from there. Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 00:26, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

pink vector skinEdit

does anyone know of a script to change the colour of the vector skin to pink? I had dark theme before but the script broke. This is so I can tell if I am logged in or not. --Tsugaru let's talk! :) 20:39, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

@Tsugaru: Probably this (the only one I know of). NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh 09:33, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
Nice thanks, {{U|NguoiDungKhnongDinhDanh}}! I am assuming to just cut and paste the whole thing? I will give credit to you Tsugaru let's talk! :) 00:54, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

NguoiDungKhnongDinhDanh see above. ping fix --Tsugaru let's talk! :) 00:54, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

@NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh: Fix ping, see above. --Tsugaru let's talk! :) 00:55, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
@Tsugaru: Don't do that; instead, add this to your .css page: @import '//Đ/pink-theme.css?action=raw&ctype=text/css'. NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh 07:46, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
@NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh Thanks, but I am still seeing the same vector skin... Any suggestions? Tsugaru let's talk! :) 19:44, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
@Tsugaru: Oops, I forgot a semi-colon at the end. It should have been like this:
@import '//Đ/pink-theme.css?action=raw&ctype=text/css';
NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh 20:30, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
Thank you. However even after this change the skin still looks the same, is it only supposed to change a certain part of the skin? You can see my changes here here thanks Tsugaru let's talk! :) 00:05, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Bradley WinslowEdit

Bradley Winslow has been improved a lot, and it's now time to vote on promoting it to good article. Join the discussion at WP:Proposed good articles#Bradley Winslow. Thanks! Lights and freedom (talk) 22:09, 12 July 2022 (UTC)


OK for the sake of my sanity can someone start archiving the main pages please! I offered to do this, but it was declined by an admin. I was simply going to move them to the latest archives but these pages are just getting longer and longer and longer. It has made trying to navigate things a lot harder and I have a very large screen and on some pages, I have to scroll just to get through the TOC. PDLTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 19:06, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

I cleared everything older than 21 days (150% of current settings) it looks like the archive bot isnt running like it should. Nunabas (talk) 02:34, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
@Nunabas To let you know the admins did not want that. That is why I didn't do it. They wanted to do it. They are aware the bot's are not working. It is a back end issue for one bot and IRL busy for another bot. I would suggest you put it back how it was please so you don't get the wrath :) PDLTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 02:40, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Similar to Village Pump - ProposalEdit

Hello all. I am proposing we have an addition section on Simple similar to the Village Pump on English Wikipedia. As we go through changes and ideas, I am thinking of one centralized place where everyone can go to provide their input or suggest their ideas about the technical layout of simple (a perfect example is if we had one already, I would be putting this up there). I see simple talk more as the tea house on enWP. Sometimes we need to make a technical change to something and since no one watches say a templates talk page, it would be better to have a place to put that suggested change on a higher visibility page so more people see it and can provide input. I already have one idea I would like to propose but it spans on two different pages. This would eliminate the issue and keep the conversation in the same place and would be similar to the RfD layout. Putting these kinds of things on a users Talk Page will likely get lost (a good example of that is above at Wikipedia:Simple_talk#Again:_Change_the_languages_on_the_log_in_page) which has been brought up repeatedly but no action gets taken and it falls off of the list even when their is consensus amongst the users and a couple of admins. The new area would be a great place to post that so it does not get mixed into other user issues. So I would like to get feedback from the community and if you think it is a good idea, feel free to bold yes, no, comment, etc in the beginning of your input. Then we can go from there and I could work on a mockup. PDLTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 01:39, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

  • Support A place where editors can propose ideas, similar to the Village Pump; sounds like a fine idea. Nythar (talk) 23:06, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. We use Simple talk for this and for many other things. Adding another page would be one more thing people had to watch. We try to keep the infrastructure to a minimum here, partly so that our small user base can keep up with maintaining it. --Auntof6 (talk) 23:44, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Simple Talk does that job well enough. There is much, much less activity here compared to enwiki, hence less activity in the community boards. It would be easier to keep everything in one place, for now. — *Fehufangą✉ Talk page 14:35, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
  • This is a small community, and this board (together with the Admin Noticeboard) serve their purpose well. Suppose we introduced the other board, there would be very little traffic. For the editors: they need to watch/read one more board, there may be confusion as to whether post here or there, so some posts may appear twice. When bots still worked (no idea if they do now), "stale" discussions got archived. And be honest: if there's no post on a discussion in two weeksa, that discussion is likely stale. Note also, there are discussion pages on individual articles, where there's no automatic archival, or it is set differently. So, except for extra complexity, and extra work, I really don't see a benefit of having another "specially-themed" general discussion board. So: oppose--Eptalon (talk) 15:58, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Just put it here on Simple Talk. Let's not add another page until we need one. However, if not enough people are finding out about important proposals, then perhaps some kind of notification system leading them to Simple Talk would be in order... Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:03, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
  • This is such a good idea, and I can see why you are proposing this, however due to the size of SEWP, and the fact that opening another page will just add a bunch of page histories it will use up more server space. As such I will have to vote an oppose for now. However maybe if things change in the future we can consider this! If this idea doesn't get passed we can always look at it again in the future! --Tsugaru let's talk! :) 01:33, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
  •   Comment: Thanks all for your input. Based on the replies there is a strong consensus for a no. I appreciate all the feedback.

@Eptalon: The automatic bots are not working (some issue that hasn’t been resolved) and the only other archive bot is Djsasso’s and they haven’t been online since around the beginning/middle of June to kick theirs off. Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 05:45, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Article Layout Guide for SimpleEdit

As most regulars know, we have links to most everything on simple for policies, guidelines, etc that start very basic then point to enWP where it is harder for non-english native speakers/readers to follow. I have come up with a very basic guide on how an article should be laid out, which also leaves all of the freedom necessary for the creation as there are very few set, hard rules on the layout, however, the MOS dictates where things go and it is complicated and very long. I am looking for more input on the layout to get more suggestions while keeping it simple. You can find the layout here and to follow along the conversation and add more information, you can visit the talk page at User_talk:PotsdamLamb/List_of_Article_Layout. It has not been yet decided if this would become part of a guideline or an essay and could simply just complement the existing pages. Let me know! I look forward to hearing from everyone. PDLTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 01:45, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Please do not remove red linked categoriesEdit

Hello all - I wanted to ask that you not remove red links on categories that I have added as I am working on some articles that are parts of a series and I will link it to the cat with the correct heading when I have it ready. An example is on Jane Pauley where the cat is The_Interviews_name_ID_same_as_Wikidata and this links to wiki-data. I have already created the templates for them from enWP to verify it works, so as I cross-check with wd and simple, I will be adding the interviews in other websites. Thank you. PDLTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 00:20, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Movement Strategy and Governance News - Issue 7Edit

Movement Strategy and Governance News
Issue 7, July-September 2022Read the full newsletter

Welcome to the 7th issue of Movement Strategy and Governance News! The newsletter distributes relevant news and events about the implementation of Wikimedia's Movement Strategy recommendations, other relevant topics regarding Movement governance, as well as different projects and activities supported by the Movement Strategy and Governance (MSG) team of the Wikimedia Foundation.

The MSG Newsletter is delivered quarterly, while the more frequent Movement Strategy Weekly will be delivered weekly. Please remember to subscribe here if you would like to receive future issues of this newsletter.

  • Movement sustainability: Wikimedia Foundation's annual sustainability report has been published. (continue reading)
  • Improving user experience: recent improvements on the desktop interface for Wikimedia projects. (continue reading)
  • Safety and inclusion: updates on the revision process of the Universal Code of Conduct Enforcement Guidelines. (continue reading)
  • Equity in decisionmaking: reports from Hubs pilots conversations, recent progress from the Movement Charter Drafting Committee, and a new white paper for futures of participation in the Wikimedia movement. (continue reading)
  • Stakeholders coordination: launch of a helpdesk for Affiliates and volunteer communities working on content partnership. (continue reading)
  • Leadership development: updates on leadership projects by Wikimedia movement organizers in Brazil and Cape Verde. (continue reading)
  • Internal knowledge management: launch of a new portal for technical documentation and community resources. (continue reading)
  • Innovate in free knowledge: high-quality audiovisual resources for scientific experiments and a new toolkit to record oral transcripts. (continue reading)
  • Evaluate, iterate, and adapt: results from the Equity Landscape project pilot (continue reading)

Other news and updates: a new forum to discuss Movement Strategy implementation, upcoming Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees election, a new podcast to discuss Movement Strategy, and change of personnel for the Foundation's Movement Strategy and Governance team. (continue reading)

Zuz (WMF) (talk) 23:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Should we keep a redirect page if it confuses the list of articles every Wikipedia should have?Edit

I recently made Clutch (eggs) and set up a redirect via Clutch. Once I saw how many pages linked there from car articles, I translated Clutch (disambiguation) from and changed the redirect so that Clutch pointed there. I also went into every bio article and changed links so that they point at the egg article.

The problem is that the list of articles that every Wikipedia should have includes "Clutch" in the mechanical/car sense. Now that red link is blue. Someone looking for a good article to write might not know we need that one. Should we delete the "Clutch" redirect page? I'm asking here because this issue may have come up before and may come up again. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

@Darkfrog24 I would follow the enWP page. “Clutch” points to the automotive clutch and a hat note that points to the disambiguation page like it is on enWP. That would be my opinion. Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 05:52, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
When there is a redirect between the qualified title -- that's the title that includes "(disambiguation)" -- and the non-qualified title, the qualified one should be the redirect. That's so that if someone wants to deliberately link to the dab page, they can link to the qualified one and we know they didn't mean the other one. So we need to either make Clutch the primary topic instead of a redirect, or move the page with the qualified title over the one without.
In case that didn't make sense, we should have one of the following situations:
  • Situation 1: "Clutch" to be the dab page and "Clutch (disambiguation)" to redirect to it
  • Situation 2: "Clutch" to be an article about the main topic and "Clutch (disambiguation)" to be the dab page. In this situation, if we don't have an article about the main topic, then "Clutch" should not exist.
For what it's worth (given that we don't have to follow enwiki), enwiki has the second situation. -- Auntof6 (talk) 06:03, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
@Auntof6 But as you always say it’s a great guideline! Lol. It’s like a 50/50 technically we can link it to any page but since the automotive clutch is listed on the list, shouldn’t that one be the main page when you type clutch in on the search bar and the hat note to the disambiguation page so it stays aligned to the list? Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 06:11, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
@PotsdamLamb: If I understand you correctly, that would be situation #2, in which case the current redirect at "Clutch" should be deleted. -- Auntof6 (talk) 06:57, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
@Auntof6 Correct if we used en as a guideline clutch goes to the automotive article with a hatnote on those affected pages Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 07:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
@PotsdamLamb: Right: a hatnote would go on "Clutch" if we had the article. But we don't have the article, so the article would just remain redlinked until and unless someone created the article. -- Auntof6 (talk) 07:07, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Got ya. Thanks @Auntof6 Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 07:45, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Guys, my concern is not which article gets to be the main one with the unqualified title. My concern is because 1) we don't have an article on mechanical clutch (and I am not interested in writing one) and 2) having ANY redirect there makes it look like we do already have an article on mechanical clutch, which 3) might deter anyone browsing the "articles we need" list from writing it, 4) maybe we're better off with no redirect, a red link and not a blue. Thoughts? Darkfrog24 (talk) 11:13, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

I think this is an issue with the list rather than with our project. Vermont 🐿️ (talk) 00:22, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Discussion for Transwiki Importer rightsEdit

Greetings, community - I ask that you please participate in the discussion where I am asking that I be granted trans-wiki importer rights on simple. Reasonings and everything else are posted there. Here is the link Wikipedia:Requests_for_trans-wiki_importer/PotsdamLamb Thanks! Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 21:11, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

@PotsdamLamb: RFD? -- Auntof6 (talk) 21:26, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
@Auntof6: Wasn't sure how to do that. I changed it to discussion. Since it is the heading, I just replaced it vs strike out. Thanks!
@PotsdamLamb: Yeah, I don't think we have an acronym for this specific right, not like RFP for patroller, etc. --Auntof6 (talk) 21:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
@Auntof6 So here are my thoughts (and it won't take long for me to do it):
  1. TWI Permissions or TWI Rights can be the name for it
  2. I can create a template, similar to what we use for RfD's
  • This would create the appropriate discussion page (like mine is)
  • It can also post on simple talk so editors know about it and they can participate
  • Same time limit as an RfD for 7 days since it was opened, but may be closed early either for snowball or at the discretion of the administrators
  • Need to create a cat for it like we have for admin, cu, etc
  • A page where those with these rights can be posted. Would prefer to put it on the same list with admins, cu, etc
  • Also need to create a special page prefix for it (that would have to be done by an admin I believe) as I do not see a tab to make it or to see the underlying code.
Maybe, if I can figure out how to is have it cross post over automatically to meta for stewards to grant the right, only if successful. If it fails, then just close and archive.
What are your thoughts on this? Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 21:59, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
My thoughts are that we probably won't need this often, so it might not be worth creating the infrastructure. -- Auntof6 (talk) 22:15, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
@Auntof6 I was looking at this one and the category is "Unsuccessful requests for adminship." At the very top of the discussion it states "The following discussion is preserved as an archive of a request for importer that did not succeed. Please do not modify it." It looks like a request for admin was used and also not labeled correctly as it did succeed but since we do not have the appropriate infrastructure in place, I feel this will help out and not mis-categorize these requests. It will also track better since these are not requests to have the mop. Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 22:26, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
@PotsdamLamb: Yeah, that's a good point. -- Auntof6 (talk) 22:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
@Auntof6 If you are ok with it, I can start on it and before sending it live I will test it then post for you or others to test as well. Would you agree to all of what I proposed above under #1 and #2? Did you want anything different? This will help me in creating it. As soon as I get the green light, I can begin. Thanks, Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 22:39, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
  Comment: PDL Has been indefinitely blocked for incivility, and he has used wikibreak enforcer to lock himself out of his account until 2030. Lallint (talk) 15:29, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Reminder to watch very good articlesEdit

This is a reminder for everyone: Very good articles should be watched closely to prevent them from degrading over time. I have just reviewed the edits to Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis. In the mere 7 months since it was promoted to very good article, it has faced additions of incorrect grammar, additions of complex text, removal of links, editing of quotes, and other bad changes. If we do not watch these articles, they will eventually have to be demoted. We know these articles are already well-written, so maintaining them should be easier than maintaining other things.

About this article in particular, I also have some topics for discussion, which I have mentioned on the talk page. Lights and freedom (talk) 02:02, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Announcing the six candidates for the 2022 Board of Trustees electionEdit

Hi everyone,

The Affiliate Representatives have completed their voting period. The selected 2022 Board of Trustees candidates are:

You may see more information about the Results and Statistics of this Board election.

The Affiliate organizations selected representatives to vote on behalf of the Affiliate organization. The Affiliate Representatives proposed questions for the candidates to answer in mid-June. These answers from candidates and the information provided from the Analysis Committee provided support for the representatives as they made their decision.

Please take a moment to appreciate the Affiliate Representatives and Analysis Committee members for taking part in this process and helping to grow the Board of Trustees in capacity and diversity. These hours of volunteer work connect us across understanding and perspective. Thank you for your participation.

Thank you to the community members who put themselves forward as candidates for the Board of Trustees. Considering joining the Board of Trustees is no small decision. The time and dedication candidates have shown to this point speaks to their commitment to this movement. Congratulations to those candidates who have been selected. A great amount of appreciation and gratitude for those candidates not selected. Please continue to share your leadership with Wikimedia.

What can voters do now?

Review the results of the Affiliate selection process.

Read more here about the next steps in the 2022 Board of Trustee election.


Movement Strategy and Governance

This message was sent on behalf of the Board Selection Task Force and the Elections Committee</translate>

Zuz (WMF) (talk) 19:38, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Consensus needed for archiving botEdit

Hello community - After two days, I am ready to start getting consensus going (even though I cannot test it anymore until approval is given to run tests; BCs see request for test note) for the PDLBotArchiver robot. So what exactly does it do? It is replacing the archiving bot that is not longer attached to simple (found this out today) and the manual one created is not being run regularly. So please do take a look and cast your opinion in the appropriate section. Here are all the links:

  1. Link to main request Wikipedia_talk:Bots#PDLBotArchiver
  2. Link for editors (including up to admin and steward without local bureaucrats rights to comment go to Wikipedia_talk:Bots#User_Comments
  3. For the bureaucrats here is your section Wikipedia_talk:Bots#Bureaucrats_comments_and_information @Eptalon @Chenzw @Djsasso

I did this to keep it organized for my sanity. I look forward to everyone's input. Thanks, Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 02:41, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

There is no need for a consensus for bots from editors. You can offer your opinion if you want to but for many bot requests, bureaucrats just offer their opinion on it, maybe approve a trial and then approve the bot and then move on. --Ferien (talk) 12:06, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
@Ferien The requirements state a consensus is needed from the community. Please see Bot policy community consensus Da LambTalk to me!OMG, What have I done? 13:43, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Archiving to beginEdit

Hello all!!! I have been given the flag (also known as the green light) to do 50 trial edits of archiving talk pages that use the MiszaBot/Configuration template. My bot is PDLBotArchiver. Your messages are not being thrown away they will be in your archives as they should be based on your settings. You may get a message that my bot edited your talk page or a page you watch and that is fine. If you see any issues please notify me on my talk page not the bots so I can immediately resolve it. Admins - The bot does have an emergency stop button should you need it.

Also to note - there is nothing that needs to be done on your end. It is all handled by the bot. Thanks ~~ Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 04:59, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Let's talk about the Desktop ImprovementsEdit

Join an online meeting with the team working on the Desktop Improvements! It will take place on 26 July 2022 at 12:00 UTC and 19:00 UTC on Zoom. Click here to join. Meeting ID: 5304280674. Dial by your location.

Read more. See you! SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 16:19, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Requesting a moveEdit

Could someone please move Amin Maher to Amina Maher? She changed her name a few years ago. I can't because I'm not autoconfirmed. Hinnk (talk) 08:41, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

@Hinnk   Done*Fehufangą✉ Talk page 08:56, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Vote for Election Compass StatementsEdit

You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki.

Hi all,

Volunteers in the 2022 Board of Trustees election are invited to vote for statements to use in the Election Compass. You can vote for the statements you would like to see included in the Election Compass on Meta-wiki.

An Election Compass is a tool to help voters select the candidates that best align with their beliefs and views. The community members will propose statements for the candidates to answer using a Lickert scale (agree/neutral/disagree). The candidates’ answers to the statements will be loaded into the Election Compass tool. Voters will use the tool by entering in their answer to the statements (agree/disagree/neutral). The results will show the candidates that best align with the voter’s beliefs and views.

Here is the timeline for the Election Compass:

  • July 8 - 20: Volunteers propose statements for the Election Compass
  • July 21 - 22: Elections Committee reviews statements for clarity and removes off-topic statements
  • July 23 - August 3: Volunteers vote on the statements
  • August 4: Elections Committee selects the top 15 statements
  • August 5 - 12: candidates align themselves with the statements
  • August 16: The Election Compass opens for voters to use to help guide their voting decision

The Elections Committee will select the top 15 statements at the beginning of August


Movement Strategy and Governance

This message was sent on behalf of the Board Selection Task Force and the Elections Committee

Zuz (WMF) (talk) 17:24, 26 July 2022 (UTC)


Hi, I keep editing conflicting myself... anyone know how to fix the problem? Tsugaru let's talk! :) 20:27, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

@つがる Can you try again please? The servers were having issues. If it still does not work, let me know. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 20:53, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Issue all fixed now Tsugaru let's talk! :) 22:08, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
@つがる Yay! Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 22:09, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
PotsdamLamb The problem is back lol --Tsugaru let's talk! :) 00:11, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
@つがる What is the article? Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 00:18, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
@PotsdamLamb: User talk:つがる/WikiProject Japan see page history. the first edit i made today had problems. Tsugaru let's talk! :) 00:21, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
@つがる Looking through the history you keep reverting yourself. The tags show "revert" or "undo". So it is not an edit conflict :) Is the keyboard tiny that you may be hitting those keys by chance? Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 00:28, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
PotsdamLamb Hmm, So when I edit and i pushed enter it said edit conflict and I just left the page, as for the keyboard I am using an external keyboard, its nice and big :) It's a pink gaming keyboard! Tsugaru let's talk! :) 00:39, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
@つがる Maybe an issue with the pink color eeeerrrrrrrr external keyboard? I cannot think of much else unless you wanna clear / by-bass your cache Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 00:45, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
PotsdamLamb I bypassed the cache, thanks for the links, I will see if things work now Tsugaru let's talk! :) 01:21, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
@つがる ok let me know. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 01:56, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
PotsdamLamb It's still happening Tsugaru let's talk! :) 02:47, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Oshwah Sorry for the random ping, but do you have any idea as to why its doing this? Tsugaru let's talk! :) 03:00, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
つがる - Something might just be stuck in your browser cache. Try clearing it. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 22:23, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

User:つがる/WikiProject Hong KongEdit

I am no good at figuring out the code, can someone help me expand the yellow frame so the image on the bottom is inside it? Thanks Tsugaru let's talk! :) 21:40, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@つがる   Done As you add participates, remove one of the br with the brackets and you should be fine. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 21:45, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Thank you! --Tsugaru let's talk! :) 21:45, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
@つがる You sure though you don't want it some variation of Pink :) Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 21:48, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
PotsdamLamb I was thinking of that lol, but then it might make it hard to see lol --Tsugaru let's talk! :) 21:50, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
@つがる Try #FFF1FB Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 22:06, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

US vs. USAEdit

Hi all. I’ve noticed an IP editor is going around and changing anything that says US to USA. Does not seem to matter if it’s in an infobox or in the article. What is the correct way? I’ve always used US in infoboxes especially with coordinates because of the way the maps are laid out for pinpointing. I looked at MoS and couldn’t seem to find it or my eyes are getting worse and I didn’t see it. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 03:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

We may not have an official correct way. I usually spell it out in article text because I think abbreviations can be difficult for English learners. In infoboxes, I usually use US. The country is usually called just "United States," without adding "of America," so that makes sense to me. -- Auntof6 (talk) 03:16, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
By the way, I see one IP editor doing this, but only on two pages. Is that what you meant by "going around and changing"? -- Auntof6 (talk) 03:18, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
@Auntof6 No I’ve seen a lot of IP editors doing this the past couple of days. Not sure if it’s the same person jumping IPs or different people doing this. That is why I was asking. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 03:48, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Request for comment - PDLBotArchiverEdit

Hi fellow Wikipedians ~ I’ve been informed that for any public page (i.e., Simple Talk, etc) that I need to gain community consensus.

Current Issues:

  • User:SassoBot has not ran in a while and requires a manual start. Since the bot owner is busy it is up in the air as to when the next time it will run.


  • I have developed User:PDLBotArchiver that is technically the same. It requires no user configuration changes on the users side.
  • On my side, for this page, I would need to allow my bot to work next to SassoBot so pages start archiving again. All tests are successful and the bot has full approval to run it.
  • This RfC is strictly to archive Simple Talk and no other pages. Thanks and I look forward to the responses.

Responses and questionsEdit

  • I think the bot should be used to archive simple talk, and any other WP: pages where it would be useful. 14 days is okay for archival time. Lights and freedom (talk) 04:40, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
    @Lights and freedom: I don't think anyone is suggesting changing the archival time, so whatever bot is doing the archive can use the time that has been in effect all along. -- Auntof6 (talk) 05:01, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
    That's fine. I didn't really see why this community discussion was necessary so I just gave my opinion. Lights and freedom (talk) 05:02, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
    @Lights and freedom Because it is required due to someone placing the restriction of the bot on the page. If it wasn’t restricted I wouldn’t need the consensus. But all I need is a yes I can or a no I cannot. Nothing else in the configuration changes unless an admin or higher changes it. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 05:08, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
  • LGTM. First run was successful. No alarming signs. Operator873 connect 11:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Arbitrary section breakEdit

  • Since this matter has been brought up, I am wondering why we even have the {{bots}} template on this page? Support for this template is on a per-implementation basis, so you must either use a framework that is {{bots}} aware, or explicitly account for it in your bot's code. Is there any currently approved bot (other than archive bots) that would ever be editing this page (be it accidental or not), and would need opting out of via the use of the {{bots}} tmeplate? Chenzw  Talk  15:40, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
    @Chenzw I believe the signing bot would also edit this page, but since SassoBot is the only authorized one, User:Cewbot won't sign the comments either. IMHO it should be allowed to do that. I cannot think of any other bots that would run on this page based on our approved ones. There may be global ones, but I am not sure. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 19:05, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

This discussion is scheduled to be closed at 08:24, 5 August 2022 (UTC). Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 08:24, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Finding Fanon (now with 100% less fish)Edit

Quoting from here, but with tweaks:

It seems that specific cartoons (which are not mainstream) on Simple English Wikipedia are often target to users adding in their own "fanon", such as an early change in the page for Numberjacks containing details that it was created by Jean-Yves Raimbaud (who couldn't have been alive in 2000), that it was a Xilam production with employees like Hugo Gittard and Marc Du Pontavice and that it had American voice actors...
This also happens with small details, like Oggy and the Cockroaches: The Movie being "produced" by Illumination, or large changes like Taffy having a large voice cast, some of whom mentioned people like Tom Kenny and Phil LaMarr (unlike the dub's official cast), or even an entire redundant page, filled with false information. (Happened with Oggy too.)
Like, it's so weird. This is Wikipedia, where it's used to display enough correct information on media. If you wanted to make fanon so much, there's Fandom. As such, I'm seeing if a better approach to fanon would be agreeable, with helpful pages (like essays) and all.

I've been trying to track anything "fanon"-y down for the past 2 hours now, but for now, I give you all this. You're welcome. --WannurSyafiqah74 (talk) 14:03, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

@WannurSyafiqah74: I've moved this thread down, because it is customary to have new threads go at the bottom of the discussion page.
Indeed, a lot of our articles about cartoons and children's show could definitely fare better. We have had probably over a dozen deletion discussions about fake TV shows, movies and entertainment companies this year alone. — *Fehufangą✉ Talk page 14:13, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
I have rangeblocked 2001:D08:E2::/48 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · block user · block log), which has been adding false information since at least May 2022. I reverted some obviously false information, but it would be good if someone more knowledgeable in the area can help review all edits from that IPv6 range, too. I won't be surprised if there are a lot more cases gone unnoticed, from other users/IPs. Chenzw  Talk  15:40, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
@User:Chenzw: I found out the SPA linked to some fan-made movie called "Pippi & Equestria Girls". The link goes to FANON WIKI, which just baffles me on how they decided to go here. That, and I'm not sure if the person also pretends Paramount does not exist. --WannurSyafiqah74 (talk) 10:07, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
Oh, that's fine. Maybe better protection on specific articles and restricted article creation would do. And if there's enough "fanon", maybe a list of Wikipedia hoaxes like on the original Wikipedia? The "hoax museum" on Wikipedia bring up articles extant for several years, including fake TV shows and such. WannurSyafiqah74 (talk) 05:39, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
@WannurSyafiqah74: Take a look at List of programs broadcast by Cartoonito. It's being constantly edited, so I think there's false info there. Lights and freedom (talk) 05:49, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
I just checked. Compared to the original/regular Wikipedia, definitely some suspicious names there. Definitely needs page protection. WannurSyafiqah74 (talk) 06:59, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

University of...Edit

Now we have a University of Heidelberg competing with a Heidelberg University! Macdonald-ross (talk) 18:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC) ... fortunately both are very short! Macdonald-ross (talk) 18:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

@Macdonald-ross Simply solved EN:Heidelberg University & - both say "Heidelberg University" we would need to disconnect "University of Heidelberg" from wikidata d:Q151510. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 18:48, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
It is one of the oldest in Europe, founded 1386. And no, there's just one University in Heildelberg (de:Ruprecht-Karls-Universität Heidelberg). So the two should be merged... Eptalon (talk) 07:21, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
636 years. I wonder what the oldest university in the world that still functions as a university in the present day. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 07:38, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
University of Bologna. Macdonald-ross (talk) 10:22, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
Wow that is old! Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 06:08, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
There are actually two that are older, one is the university of Cairo, and I think the other is in Morococo, but not sure... Eptalon (talk) 08:56, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

If we left aside universities which promoted religions (all of the above), we'd still have Plato's Academy and Aristotle's Lyceum. You'll remember that Plato was specifically condemned for promoting disbelief in the gods (that was the actual charge against him). That's 4th century B.C. I think we can be sure the ancient Egyptians had some kind of organisation for training their priests, but I'm not familiar with that literature. Macdonald-ross (talk) 20:16, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

"Absolute hot"Edit

This refers to [1].

It has no corresponding page on En wiki as far as I can see. Anyone with a background in physics care to have a look? It has no sources. Macdonald-ross (talk) 09:33, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Worth noting that enwiki had a page for this, but it was deleted in AfD: en:Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Absolute_hot. Also, see this discussion on WP Physics' talk page. — *Fehufangą✉ Talk page 09:51, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Need mass message sentEdit

I need a mass message sent about archiving, if an admin would volunteer to do this for me I would appreciate it. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 16:03, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

What is the message, and who do you want it to be sent to? Best, Vermont 🐿️ (talk) 16:48, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
I have spoken with Vermont on IRC, this is not needed. Thank you. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 17:01, 31 July 2022 (UTC)


This IP is having problem, making some edits on some US Interstate Highways articles, where some info are missing or provided wrong info. Please keep a note of it. The IP have been warned before (as per I saw on it's talk page).--Jyoti Roy (talk) 16:14, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Added quick links - Special:Contributions/ Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 16:18, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
I think I should mention minor info, instead.--Jyoti Roy (talk) 16:20, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Add to MOSEdit

As all know, if we do not have it on our MOS, we tell editors to go read it on enWP. That does our readers no good as it is very complicated english. I have started a discussion "Bring over and simplify currencies" as I would like to bring this to our MOS and simplify it. Please go there to discuss and please do not discuss it here. Thanks - Da LambTalk to me!Please don't eat da 🐑! 18:43, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Simple wordsEdit

Hi, Over at Waterloo Road (TV series) it currently says in the lead "the show was recommissioned for an eleventh series, with production returning to the Greater Manchester area." - Should the word "recommissioned" be replaced with a simpler word and should the word "Synopsis" further down also be replaced ?,

I would assume yes for both but I don't know what they should be replaced with (if they should), Many thanks, Warm Regards, –Davey2010Talk 22:36, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
You would need to do more than replace word for word. Recast the whole sentence, for example: "There will be another series, produced in the Greater Manchester area again". Macdonald-ross (talk) 08:08, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi @Macdonald-ross, You sir are amazing thank you so much!, I'll be honest I never thought of replacing the whole sentence - Just thought I needed to replace a word only, I'll replace it now, Many thanks for your help greatly appreciated, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 12:50, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Move requestEdit

Seraikistan to Saraikistan. More common spelling, matches English wikipedia. --Middle river exports (talk) 17:26, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Done Lallint (talk) 17:42, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

How can I delete a sandbox page I made please?Edit

I maybe learnt this before but I forgot as I don't come here often. Chidgk1 (talk) 09:46, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

@Chidgk1 Hello, if the sandbox is in your userspace, you can add the template {{qd-user}} (speedy deletion for pages in one's own userspace) to the page. — *Fehufangą✉ Talk page 09:48, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Either you put a QD-template on the page, or you simply delete its ocntents (will then be dlelted as "user requested deletion or blanked the page"... Eptalon (talk) 23:16, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Transwiki requestEdit

Hi, Could someone create and transwiki:

Template:Runner-up from en:Template:Runner-up
Template:CFinalist from en:Template:CFinalist
Template:Quit from en:Template:Quit
Template:CRemoved from en:Template:CRemoved

and for update purposes also transwiki:

Template:Won from en:Template:Won
Template:Eliminated from en:Template:Eliminated


Thanks, Warm Regards, –Davey2010Talk 18:42, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

@Davey2010: Doing. Stand by. -- Auntof6 (talk) 19:34, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
@Davey2010:   Done --Auntof6 (talk) 19:38, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Hey @Auntof6, Long time no see, Hope you're doing well, Many thanks for doing these as always I greatly appreciate your help :), I plan to create all BBUK series articles over the weekend and apparently the tables use the templates above, Anyway thanks again for your help much appreciated, Thanks, –Davey2010Talk 21:36, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

The "Change" commandEdit

I have no idea how to use the 'simple' change command when the content is in a table or table-like form. When I try to edit, I get a page about change a template. It's much simpler to use 'Çhange source.' Any ideas? Kdammers (talk) 19:43, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

@Kdammers, you may be right, I also face problems when I do "change" command. For table related case, I think source code change is appropriate than in visual change. When I try to add pictures in visual edit at the columns of the table, it makes me difficult to do it. DRC (User:TTP1233) (talk . e-mail . contrib) 07:50, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Renaming of Nanjing Massacre MuseumEdit

Can we rename Nanjing Massacre Museum to Memorial Hall of the Victims in Nanjing Massacre by Japanese Invaders, per enwiki? Asking consent. DRC (User:TTP1233) (talk . e-mail . contrib) 17:21, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Be bold.--Gordonrox24 | Talk 17:30, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Ok @Gordonrox24. :-) Best DRC (User:TTP1233) (talk . e-mail . contrib) 01:58, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
Well, I think it's quite ridiculous to have such a long title when a simpler one would do just as well. Macdonald-ross (talk) 16:34, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
@Macdonald-ross, you are right, how about we keep a short title as Nanjing Massacre Memorial Hall. And keep this long name (or official name) in the content of the article itself. DRC (User:TTP1233) (talk . e-mail . contrib) 10:50, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
@Macdonald-ross: Unless it's the actual name of the place. In any case, whichever one we don't use could be a redirect. -- Auntof6 (talk) 16:11, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
Agree with you on this @Auntof6. DRC (User:TTP1233) (talk . e-mail . contrib) 16:43, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Input not listed?Edit

Why don't I see my input on this page in my "My pages" list? Kdammers (talk) 21:05, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Curious: This (right above) is listed, but my 4 August entry is not. Kdammers (talk) 21:07, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
@Kdammers: Where are you seeing a "My pages" list? -- Auntof6 (talk) 22:02, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Sorry, I meant "My changes."16:23, 8 August 2022 (UTC)Kdammers (talk) 16:24, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
@Kdammers: I see three changes from you on 4 August, one here and two on Fort Morgan, Colorado. Can you provide some screenshots to help us figure this out? It would help to have the following screenshots:
  • The top of your "My changes" list with "Find changes" expanded so we can see what options you have in effect. (There could be some option that's suppressing your 4 August entry.)
  • The part of the "My changes" display that spans your 4 August entry (that is, it includes changes both before and after the spot where that change should appear)
  • The very bottom of your "My changes" display
Then we can start to check this. -- Auntof6 (talk) 18:13, 8 August 2022 (UTC)


I need some help citing an Academic Journal I found, I am too confused even on the visual editor on how to do it. Is there a page that can help me? --Tsugaru let's talk! :) 21:30, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

@つがる: Have you looked at the documentation for Template:Cite journal? -- Auntof6 (talk) 21:38, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the link. I actually figured it out now! Tsugaru let's talk! :) 02:47, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Archiving botEdit

We are left still wanting an archive bot. I've offered up Bot873 until Sassobot comes back to work. After a successful trial and first authorized run, I wanted to write here shine a light on a few details.

Check your archiving bot configsEdit

This is to remind everyone that if you are using the {{bots}} template on your talk page, you need to check your configs. Currently Bot873 will only run in the User talk namespace where there is a {{User:MiszaBot/config}} (see User:MiszaBot/config) set AND there is either no {{bots}} template at all or where the {{bots}} template is used like this: {{bots}}, {{bots|allow=all}}, or {{bots|allow=Bot873}}.

The bot will ignore all pages that use {{nobots}} or use the {{bots}} template with |allow=Sassobot, deny=all, or deny=Bot873.

If you are new to archiving your talkpages auto-magically, there are several examples on the User:MiszaBot/config page and practical implementations on various pages.

RfC #1: Use of the bots template in Wikipedia namespaceEdit

The {{bots}} template is currently used on many Wikipedia namespace pages in conjunction with {{User:MiszaBot/config}}. Currently, the {{bots}} template is explicitly only allows Sassobot (allow=Sassobot). This will prevent Bot873 from running on those pages. To proceed with archiving operations, the community will need to decide on one of the following:

  1. Remove the {{bots}} template from all Wikipedia namespace pages and use {{nobots}} where bot activity should be specifically forbidden, if required.
  2. Remove allow=Sassbot from the {{bots}} templates that are currently on Wikipedia namespace pages. This would implicitly allow bot activity from any approved bot.
  3. Append the {{bots}} templates used in the Wikipedia namespace with allow=Sassobot,Bot873 to allow either bot to archive the page with the template.


  • Support Option 1 since bots require approval already to run on this project, I feel like explicitly using {{bots}} template to allow or the {{nobots}} or {{bots|deny=all}} to disallow bot activity is redundant. Especially since {{User:MiszaBot/config}} has to be set to configure archiving anyway. Operator873 connect 05:54, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Support Option 1sgd Feohfang (talk) 09:46, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Support Option 1 --Chenzw  Talk  10:02, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Support Option number one --Tsugaru let's talk! :) 19:38, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Support Option 1 more convenient. --DRC (User:TTP1233) (talk . e-mail . contrib) 16:42, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
  • option 1 --Ferien (talk) 19:30, 11 August 2022 (UTC)



RfC #2: Bot873 to archive project/Wikipedia pagesEdit

With a successful first production run, Bot873 is ready to be offered to the community to take up duties archiving project/Wikipedia pages as needed. Once RfC #1 is settled, the bot is ready to take over from Sassobot until such time as Sassobot returns. With community consent, Bot873 will happily get to work. However, to repeat, RfC #1 above will directly affect this proposal.




  • Abstention My bot so I will not vote on this one. Operator873 connect 05:54, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for all the patience and input! Operator873 connect 05:54, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Merge help essaysEdit

I think that Wikipedia:Words to avoid in Simple English and Help:Translate English into Simple English are very similar. It seems silly to have a page that only lists one word to avoid, especially when there are more suggestions available on another page. Should we merge them? Lights and freedom (talk) 15:04, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

  • I see we have the film / movie again, and once again I'll say the same thing: This was just a decision made, not an example of the simplicity concept. I would delete the page, which is pretty useless. Macdonald-ross (talk) 06:19, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Another worth deleting...Edit

World Party Day doesn't exist, and as far as I know, never did. The page is out-of-date and not independently sourced. Let's get rid of it! Macdonald-ross (talk) 08:57, 11 August 2022 (UTC)