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Action: Change the languages on the Log in pageEdit

In December and January we had a discussion about Proposal: Change the languages on the Log in page. There was a pretty clear consensus to change, with some details of exactly which languages to include. Then, it dropped of the Simple Talk page. Probably just an automated time limit thing? Anyway, the hold up seemed to be that very few people have the permissions to make the change. I would help out of I could, but I can't. Can this be put in place? Thanks, --Gotanda (talk) 05:41, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

The change is easy and can be done in a second. The deciding on the languages is the hard part as Chenzw mentions near the end of that discussion there is no consensus on which languages to include. -Djsasso (talk) 11:03, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
Gotanda's suggestions seemed fair to me, in my opinion. I agree the current languages are not ideal for a world audience. --IWI (talk) 11:04, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
I agree with Gotanda's list at the end. I think the most important languages are English, French, Spanish, Chinese, Arabic, Russian, and Hindi. Naddruf (talk) 02:07, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
Chinese Traditional or Simplified? I'm assuming by Chinese it means Mandarin? --Tsugaru Let's Talk! :) 🍁 02:10, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
I don't know about Traditional or Simplified, but aren't the different varieties of Chinese written the same? Naddruf (talk) 03:14, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm not too sure, I would imagine they would be very similar. I can only speak Cantonese, but listening to Mandrain is way different than Cantonese. Just to give some contex, for Japanese Chinese characters (Kanji), they are read differently than regular Chinese, but have the same characters. Tsugaru Let's Talk! :) 🍁 01:31, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
The discussion stopped last time as the topic was moved / fell off Simple Talk into the archives. Over the past and current discussion, it seems we have a general consensus on this from many people, but つがる makes a good point about Chinese and we should probably include both to avoid prioritizing one over the other, so that gets us to something like this:
عربى | 中文 (正體字) (简化字) | English | español | français | हिन्दी | Indonesian | русский | Swahili.
Is that OK to go ahead with? Or, anything else to be changed? Thanks all. It's just a login page. People may login on another wiki. But for first time visitors, I think something like this shows a more welcoming face than Esperanto etc.--Gotanda (talk) 02:30, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
@Gotanda: I support the above suggestion. --IWI (talk) 16:32, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
  Support The above is good. --Belwine (talk) 16:35, 5 April 2021 (UTC)
I have to ask why Indonesian? That does not seem like its on the same level as the others and seems to put an over emphasis on that region by having four asian-based languages (five if you count russia)? Seems like it puts us in the opposite problem of being too asia centric instead of too euro centric. English, Spanish and French while starting in Europe are the main languages for countries around the world not just Europe whereas I can't say the same for Indonesian. I would probably drop both Indonesian and Russian. -Djsasso (talk) 11:31, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

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I happen to agree with Djsasso --Tsugaru Let's Talk! :) 🍁 00:59, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

With just under 200 million speakers and then with roughly mutual intelligibility for most Malaysians for this purpose that makes about 230 million. Four European languages (English, Spanish, French, and Russian) and three/four Asian (Chinese (two scripts) Hindi, Indonesian) seemed not out of line. Africa is relatively lightly represented with Swahili and to some extent Arabic but is also covered by the colonial languages. That was the thinking there. If it has to go, it has to go. If it stays, I guess it should also be localized to Bahasa Indonesia. Too bad this conversation stopped when it was pulled off Simple Talk in the first place. My priority for this proposal was to make the login more inclusive and get rid of the current design which seems more than a little odd and doesn't represent us well. --Gotanda (talk) 05:19, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Personally, I would never be without German, which is one of the two most important languages of science & technology, and is almost the lingua franca of east and central Europe. Don't forget that Arabic covers north Africa pretty well, while none of the native African languages do the job at all well. English (and sometimes Arabic) is the lingua franca of countries below the the northern coast. The argument against such languages as Malaysian is that they have no reach, and virtually no international use. You can't judge these things by population of the country of origin alone. Hindi is probably a better international language than Mandarin. Macdonald-ross (talk) 06:41, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Excuse me for coming in a second time. I think we should do more than I suggested above. We should consider listing each language in English, not in its own script and language. Many will not know that Cymraeg is Welsh, that Gaeilge is Irish, Scots is just a dialect of English, that Ido is goodness what, but not a regular language, that the oriental script is not just Chinese, but Mandarin... and so on. Not only should we cut out some of the nonsense, but list properly in English the links to the world's greatest languages. If that language uses a different script then that can be added in brackets. There really is no upside to listing in scripts which most of out readers cannot decode. Improving the usability of this side-list is important. Macdonald-ross (talk) 07:32, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
If you mean the interwiki links, they are written in their own language so that people who actually can read those languages can find the link to the language they understand. It is important they are in their own language to help users that actually need those languages and can't read English and for some reason ended up on our pages. People who can't understand those languages probably don't need to know what they are links too because they won't go there anyway. -Djsasso (talk) 11:10, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Macdonald-ross makes a good point as well. How many speakers in a given country is somewhat irrelevant if the languages have little to no reach beyond their own borders which is why I suggested on going with the lingua franca from the countries our stats say our visitors are coming from because those choices would actually be helpful to our readers as opposed to just looking like we are trying to be broad based. As for why the login page is the way it is, what we have is just the default languages from the WMF, they were not chosen specifically for simple. Not sure why they are what the WMF chose for the default but they are. Esperanto I assume is included because it is intended to be the cross-language language but other than that no idea. -Djsasso (talk) 11:04, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
I'm not sure I get that transborder reach is more important; having a very large number of speakers in just one or two countries is important enough. I would like to ask you to reconsider this, dj, "just looking like we are trying to be broad based." I have not proposed this for appearances sake. We should be broad based. I think that the languages presented at the login matter. And, that a better selection makes the site more welcoming, more accessible, and more inline with larger Wikipedia goals. As far as number of visitors from country by IP goes, I think that is less useful for reasons I have already outlined in the previous discussion: one, country/ip address does not equate to language of the user; two, just counting the current users is a feedback loop--it's a bit like looking for your dropped keys under lamp post. Making the login more immediately appealing to a greater variety of people may help us get beyond our current reach rather than just concentrating on it. There can be some changes around the edges of the list, but any of the proposed versions of that list would be better than what we have now. It can always be improved later. --Gotanda (talk) 09:00, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I think it is substantially more important to be useful to the people actually using the site rather than just trying to look welcoming to people who may possibly come here. I think that is a detriment to the people who are actually coming here which could lead to the shrinking of our userbase due to not being as welcoming to them. This is where the appearances sake comes in, we are just trying to look welcoming for people who may or may not come here while actively being less welcoming to people who do actually come here. But yes, I think the language being transborder is important because it means more countries reached by that language, thus more of the world being covered by that language, rather than a small single country. -Djsasso (talk) 11:43, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

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Looking at the list of countries with visitors, I think we should definitely add Hindi, because India is the country with the second most visits. I think it's reasonable to keep German, but remove Esperanto, as almost nobody uses it. Also add Russian, because Russia is the non-English speaking country with the most visits (after India). I think we can probably remove Italian, but doing that is not necessary. Even if we don't make all the changes as originally proposed, it would be good if we do this. Assuming, of course, that we keep multiple languages on the Login page. Lights and freedom (talk) 17:49, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

OK, I'll support this. We seem agreed that at least this should be done. Macdonald-ross (talk) 19:46, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
Yeah I can get on board with that. -Djsasso (talk) 20:44, 19 April 2021 (UTC)
DJ and Mac, several users supported my suggestions. You seem to have changed up the list. Can one of you provide what you now think that list should be so that everyone who weighed in before can have a look and see if they still support or oppose? Thanks, -- Gotanda (talk) 04:30, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Can this still be done? Add Hindi and Russian, remove Esperanto, Italian, and maybe Dutch? Lights and freedom (talk) 17:01, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Main Page Redesign/TweaksEdit

I know this may sound like a weird/Not possible Idea, but could we come up with a 'facelifted' version of the main page, and then gain a consensus to implement the new design? I know this sounds like a hard idea/thing to do, and I'm not sure if this is possible or not? But what are your ideas? Tsugaru Let's Talk! :) 🍁 02:24, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

I think that would depend on what exactly you'd want changed. I think we've done redesigns before. I personally like to leave well enough alone, but as long as other people do the work I usually don't grouse about it too much. --Auntof6 (talk) 02:34, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
It's not major changes per se, just the shape of the boxes, and the font type, and a very small change to the COVID header. Not any major changes, but like a facelift, but if others want to leave it as it is, I am 100% okay with that. --Tsugaru Let's Talk! :) 🍁 02:36, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
  • No reason it couldn't be done. I imagine you can view the source of the page, take the content to a sandbox and make the changes you want before presenting it to the community to discuss. Any changes to the main page should be discussed at Talk:Main Page, so the page's entire discussion history remains in one place.--Gordonrox24 | Talk 02:54, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
Okay, so should I move this discussion there? Yea, I guess I could take the code and copy it into my userspace, make some changes, and present them. --Tsugaru Let's Talk! :) 🍁 02:55, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Personally I think we have a nice clean page and don't think it needs any changes, but can't hurt for someone to mock some changes up and get input from the community. The covid header can probably actually be removed at this point, it was only meant to be temporary when the situation was very new. -Djsasso (talk) 15:55, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

COIEdit

What do I do about this COI? https://simple.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:UspLK&diff=prev&oldid=7485288Yaakov Wa. (talk) 21:59, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Yaakov Wa.: What is the conflict? --Auntof6 (talk) 22:29, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
Dear Auntof6,
User claimed to be founder of organization. However, seems to be resolved because user is first going to en-wiki.
Blessings,
Yaakov W. Yaakov Wa. (talk) 22:32, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Suggested ValuesEdit

Timur Vorkul (WMDE) 14:08, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Template:WelcomeEdit

Template:Welcome links to Wikipedia:Most wanted articles, which has not been updated since 2012. Should this link be removed? Lights and freedom (talk) 23:26, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Would make sense to me to like it to Special:Wantedpages.--Gordonrox24 | Talk 23:28, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Fixed link. -Djsasso (talk) 14:01, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
Should we just turn Wikipedia:Most wanted articles into a redirect at this point? Since it is so old it is not useful in of itself. Desertborn (talk) 14:08, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
I was going to, but decided it should probably be left separate so as not to redirect across namespaces. If a bot gets set up to start updating it again then its there ready to go. Could probably ask Chenzw if he still has to the code to keep it updated. -Djsasso (talk) 14:18, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

CaptchaEdit

Do non-autoconfirmed users (such as IPs) need to complete a captcha before creating a new page? Or does this not exist? Tsugaru Let's Talk! :) 🍁 20:32, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

According to Special:Captcha, no, this does not exist. --Ferien (talk) 20:37, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Do you think this would be useful if enabled, Ferien? --Tsugaru Let's Talk! :) 🍁 20:42, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
I think this is definitely something we should consider, it will be useful, especially for some contributors who mass create bad pages. --Ferien (talk) 20:55, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Yea, and it would reduce the amount of traffic, if there are bots creating pages. Creating those geo-stubs are fine, but since it is probably a bot, it is against policy. Also like you mention, it will stop those spam pages. So should I start a proposal here? --Tsugaru Let's Talk! :) 🍁 20:59, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Is that something that other Wikipedias already do? If not, it would need to be proposed at Meta, not here. --Auntof6 (talk) 00:36, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
I honestly don't know, I never used an IP or created a page un autoconfirmed, good catch Auntof6! Would I be able to start the proposal here, and then go to meta once there's consensus? EN Wikipedia does not allow un-autoconfirmed users to create pages, so they'd would have no CAPTCHA --Tsugaru Let's Talk! :) 🍁 00:39, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
I wouldn't. I'd go straight to meta, where you could get input from people who work on many different Wikimedia projects. It might not even be Meta; there might be a separate site for discussing software changes. Having a consensus here wouldn't mean anything if it's only here. Remember that changes to the basic software are done at a higher level than any one Wikipedia. --Auntof6 (talk) 02:06, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
Would it be beneficial to go to the Test Wikipedia so we can test the changes there? --Tsugaru Let's Talk! :) 🍁 02:13, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
I wouldn't know. --Auntof6 (talk) 09:03, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

"Incorporated" or "Inc." as titlesEdit

I see pages created with titles both formats. Could we not standardise on Inc. and Ltd. as is usual in the press? Maybe we have had this discussion before. Macdonald-ross (talk) 06:24, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

I'd favor the abbreviation, since that's what you usually see. --Auntof6 (talk) 09:03, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
It falls to common name. In some cases the short form is probably what the organization is more often called by, whereas in others the long form is. We shouldn't standardize just to standardize, like anything else we need to follow WP:COMMONNAME. -Djsasso (talk) 13:57, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Talk page messagesEdit

Our talk page message is large and vulgar. I think it may deter users from sensible use of the talk page. I almost never see any use of the talk page after that notice is put up. We should replace it with a two-line wording which is friendlier to the eye. Indeed we should try and educate users to make constructive suggestions on the talk page, which is rarely done on this wiki. In general, IPs can't make direct changes to En wiki pages, and their talk pages are informative and helpful to the work on the topic page. Macdonald-ross (talk) 06:44, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Which talk page message are you talking about? --Auntof6 (talk) 09:04, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
The many talk pages where a regular editor has deleted some silly or inappropriate comment. As it looks for this particular page:
... but in general it shows without the archive section. Macdonald-ross (talk) 10:01, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
That is why these headers are put on the page, they give links on how to appropriately contribute. -Djsasso (talk) 13:56, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
Would the fix here be to have some high level topic specific talk page headers? i.e. History, Sports, Geography, ect. That might make discussions on those topics more likely?--Gordonrox24 | Talk 00:02, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
I think that would just be wasted effort with little benefit. Talk pages aren't used much here because there aren't many editors. Lights and freedom (talk) 04:30, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
I would tend to agree with this. Really we started adding these to talk pages more often mostly so admins didn't have to keep deleting vandalized talk pages and if I recall correctly we thought it was more welcoming if someone else stumbled onto the talk page than the typical deleted page message. To be honest we likely don't ever need them on this wiki because there is rarely any talk on talk pages. -Djsasso (talk) 03:08, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
I mostly meant that there is no need for topic specific talk page headers. Lights and freedom (talk) 05:08, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
I understand, I was expanding on my thoughts. -Djsasso (talk) 10:52, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

ArticlesEdit

Can someone check the Alutor language and Alutor Numerals articles. I can't make much sense out of them. I think the Numerals article has the wrong title, but I have no idea what's with the Language article... Etoza (talk) 14:10, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

That's strange. It is about Algerian Arabic, but it is titled Alutor Numerals. Darubrub (Let me know) 17:20, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Twinkle's rollback does not work on user contribs pageEdit

It's a useful Twinkle feature to revert multiple edits of an LTA or a persistent vandal quickly from their user contributions page. However, the feature seems to be broken on Simple English Wikipedia. It would instead redirect me to https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/(article name)&twinklerevert=norm. Is there any fix to this? --*Fehufangą✉ Talk page ♮ 10:53, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Call for Election VolunteersEdit

Hi everyone,

Would you like to get the right people elected to the Wikimedia Foundation’s Board of Trustees?

Voter turnout in prior elections was about 10% globally. We know we can get more voters to help assess and promote the best candidates, but to do that, we need your help.

We are looking for volunteers to serve as Election Volunteers. You can read more about this role here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_elections/2021/2021-04-29/Call_for_Board_Elections_Volunteers

Election Volunteers should have a good understanding of their communities. The facilitation team sees Election Volunteers as doing the following:

  • Promote the election in their communities’ channels
  • Organize discussions about the election in their communities
  • Translate messages for their communities

Do you want to be an Election Volunteer for Simple Wikipedia or any of the Wiki projects, and connect your community with this movement effort? Check out more details about Election Volunteers and add your name next to the community you will support in this table or get in contact with a facilitator. We aim to have at least one Election Volunteer for Wiki Projects in the top 30 for eligible voters. Even better if there are two or more sharing the work.

If you have any questions or comments regarding this role please reach out to me or any of the board governance facilitators.

Best,Zuz (WMF) (talk) 11:33, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Template Error HelpEdit

As I am going through articles on checks; this page 2021 FIFA World Championship is throwing errors on the template and are visible in the article. I am not familiar with them, so I am asking for help on this. Thanks! PotsdamLamb (talk) 15:49, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Afghan categoriesEdit

I need some help with something. I want to merge Category:Afghan leaders with Category:Afghan politicians (which I just made), but I don't know the best way to do it. Is it okay to put monarchs in the politicians category? If anybody has more experience than me, they can fix it. 2601:640:4000:3170:A92B:B732:D71B:29DF (talk) 20:23, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

@2601:640:4000:3170:A92B:B732:D71B:29DF: I don't think it is appropriate to merge, but I've added Afghan leaders as a subcat of Afghan politicians. Regards, --Ferien (talk) 20:25, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Good articles, again...Edit

Hello, I just wanted to point out that there are a few articles in the Proposed good articles section. Some of them may be closer to being promoted than others. This is simply a message, so that editors can have a look and add their thoughts on the different candidates...--Eptalon (talk) 20:59, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Why does the WikiLove feature not exist on this wiki?Edit

That would be a real helpful feature. Why doesn't it exist? SoyokoAnis - talk 15:11, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there is any particular reason why, it just doesn't.
I've never used it before, I tried it out, I like how it works, it would be nice to have it here... --Ferien (talk) 15:57, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
I also wanted this feature here. --Hulgedtalk⟩ 16:00, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
We discussed it and decided not to implement it. If I remember correctly, it was because it requires upkeep and we didn't want that extra burden on our small wiki. --Auntof6 (talk) 20:55, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Yea, and I personally don't see a need for it either, I usually just go to the barnstars page and get the template(s) there anyways --Tsugaru Let's Talk! :) 🍁 23:41, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Enabling TwinkleEdit

Hello I am autoconfirmed and I used twinkle today but I disabled it and I forgot how to re-enable it. Please help me. -Leo (let's talk) (my help) 19:13, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

@Leo12350: Go to your gadget preferences and you should be able to reenable it. :) --Ferien (talk) 19:16, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, thanks. BTW I was looking to ask you that on your talk page. Anyways, thanks. -Leo (let's talk) (my help) 19:18, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Anything comparable to Resource Exchange: Resource Request here?Edit

Does Simple English Wikipedia have anything comparable to Resource Exchange: Resource Request on the regular English Wikipedia? Futurist110 (talk) 23:36, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

No. We're much to small of a wiki to run something like that.--Gordonrox24 | Talk 23:41, 4 May 2021 (UTC)
Do you know if any Wiki other than the English Wikipedia has anything comparable to this? Futurist110 (talk) 03:26, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
Unfortunately I do not know. I'm not fortunate enough to know more than 1 language. We do have a few editors from other languages who frequent here, maybe they will know. My possibly uneducated guess is that it'll be a no across the board, as nobody can quite match the English Wikipedia's activity level. And certainly that undertaking is resource intensive.--Gordonrox24 | Talk 03:34, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Medal Table HelpEdit

Please see my help request at David de Gea. Thanks! PotsdamLamb (talk) 15:43, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

How much further should this article be simplified?Edit

I created and translated this article using Simple English, but do I also need to simplify this article's structure, or what? :

U.S. economic performance under Democratic and Republican presidents

If so, I could do that while keeping the tables in this article intact. Futurist110 (talk) 04:17, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Specifically, if necessary, I can outright remove and/or shorten some sections and the intro in this article. Futurist110 (talk) 07:13, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Issues with this page: I don't want to get too far into this, but the page should show population growth, which is very significant in various ways. Even more significant is the effect of WWII on global competitiveness. It's no surprise that Truman did so well, with the main competitors knocked out!! In any event the page is just a data page, but it suggests by implication that the main factor in the economic results is the political leadership. This might be true for some presidents but not most. Suppose a thirteen-year-old reads it. What are they supposed to think about its data? Isn't there an interpretation of how the data makes sense? I think there isn't, but if there is I'd like to read it. If not, why have the page at all? There are things which are so, so important, such as the exporting of manufacture from the U.S. (and the U.K., incidentally) to Asia, the re-entry of China (and Eastern Europe) into the world markets, and goodness knows what else! We should point out some of this. The world is not a level playing field... Macdonald-ross (talk) 07:26, 6 May 2021 (UTC)